Brutal Tactics

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Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:40 pm

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:To annex the starving civilian.

Liu just did what my professor did last time. Giving tons of work to my burden is brutal. (especially when I'm starved)


Then I suggest you add a few more names.Cao Cao,Sun Quan,Yuan Shao and every other warlord in the period.Feel free to compile a list because EVERYBODY did that same thing.
You don't really think these were volunteer armies do you?Nearly all of each kingdom's armies were conscripted.And they were paid with food.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:46 pm

Exar Kun wrote:
Then I suggest you add a few more names.Cao Cao,Sun Quan,Yuan Shao and every other warlord in the period.Feel free to compile a list because EVERYBODY did that same thing.

I may add their names. (in response to the topic)

You don't really think these were volunteer armies do you?Nearly all of each kingdom's armies were conscripted.And they were paid with food.

As a reply to your question, I don't think there were many volunteer armies, but I don't agree there were none.

But what's your point on saying such things? If you find the topic of this thread not interesting to u, you can browse the others.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:59 pm

LING_TONG ^0 wrote:But what's your point on saying such things? If you find the topic of this thread not interesting to u, you can browse the others.


It's nice that you're here to tell me these things.
My objection is that you're specifically singling out Liu Bei when in fact everyone is guilty of doing that.
Given that you're Wuist and dissing Liu Bei,you understand that as a part Shuist I have to step up.

[/quote]
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:11 pm

LOL!
I use Ling as my name caz I like his vehement vengeance.
I Like Lu Bo more than Sun Quan.

Exar Kun wrote:
It's nice that you're here to tell me these things.
My objection is that you're specifically singling out Liu Bei when in fact everyone is guilty of doing that.
Given that you're Wuist and dissing Liu Bei,you understand that as a part Shuist I have to step up

Haven't put Sun's name down doesn't mean I will not.
And from your assumptions, I think u had jumped to the conclusion too quick.

I couldn't imagine I would quote myself from a recent post, (plz read carefully next time, Exar)
I may add their names. (in response to the topic)

I said I might add their (including Sun) names.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:16 am

Exar Kun wrote:
LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:The point is brutal or not, don't confuse me.


Expand your scope.
I noted the brutality of Lu Xun at Xinshi to which the responses I got were that Lu Xun attacked there to secure his retreat thus meaning his massacre was strategic.
I deflected this by referring to the fact that he had already secured his retreat with Xiangyang and that there were no armies at Xinshi to justify him attacking there if it is being put forward that this was another feint by him.


Lu Xun was secruing his victory and successful take over of Anlu.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:28 am

Lu Kang wrote:Lu Xun was secruing his victory and successful take over of Anlu.


By committing massacres in the countryside?
Is he a frickin Aztec?He needs to offer sacrificial blood anytime he does something.

That was murder,plain and simple.You can't even make up an excuse for it.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:02 am

We don't even know how many he killed but it was < 1,000. Since many people brought their families to submit to him he obviously wasn't just slaughtering all innocent people. The two used in conjunction like that would imply the intent was to capture but those who fought were killed.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:46 pm

Looking at Lu Xun's SGZ about the incident at Xinshi:
The enemies had to kill their own civilians in order to shut the city gates. The Wu army slaughtered and captured some one thousand people


Well the translator's over at Kongming.net (Lady Wu and Sonken who translated it-thanks) use the term slaughter to describe Lu Xun's actions. Now a strategic action is never described as 'slaughter' thus SGZ records nothing strategic about Lu Xun's actions. Maybe you can blame the translator but considering that one of the translators is a noted Wuist, you can't blame them for being to harsh with their translations. This isn't even considering the harsh tone Pei takes over the events.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:54 pm

My bad. The original phrase reads: 斩首获生,凡千余人--"Those whom he beheaded or captured alive numbered more than a thousand."

Actually, both the translators of the bio are notorious Wuists.

I have no excuse for Lu Xun. :?
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:51 pm

We can see more if we look into the big picture...
The original whole text about the case:
嘉 禾 五 年 , 權 北 征 , 使 遜 與 諸 葛 瑾 攻 襄 陽 。 遜 遣親 人 韓 扁 齎 表 奉 報 , 還 , 遇 敵 於 沔 中 , 鈔 邏 得 扁 。 瑾 聞之 甚 懼 , 書 與 遜 云 : 「 大 駕 已 旋 , 賊 得 韓 扁 , 具 知 吾 闊狹 。 且 水 乾 , 宜 當 急 去 。 」 遜 未 答 , 方 催 人 種 葑 豆 , 與諸 將 弈 棋 射 戲 如 常 。 瑾 曰 : 「 伯 言 多 智 略 , 其 當 有 以 。」 自 來 見 遜 , 遜 曰 : 「 賊 知 大 駕 以 旋 , 無 所 復 慼 , 得 專力 於 吾 。 又 已 守 要 害 之 處 , 兵 將 意 動 , 且 當 自 定 以 安 之, 施 設 變 術 , 然 後 出 耳 。 今 便 示 退 , 賊 當 謂 吾 怖 , 仍 來相 蹙 , 必 敗 之 勢 也 。 」 乃 密 與 瑾 立 計 , 令 瑾 督 舟 船 , 遜悉 上 兵 馬 , 以 向 襄 陽 城 。 敵 素 憚 遜 , 遽 還 赴 城 。 瑾 便 引船 出 , 遜 徐 整 部 伍 , 張 拓 聲 勢 , 步 趨 船 , 敵 不 敢 干 。 軍到 白 圍 , 託 言 住 獵 , 潛 遣 將 軍 周 峻 、 張 梁 等 擊 江 夏 新 市、 安 陸 、 石 陽 , 石 陽 市 盛 , 峻 等 奄 至 , 人 皆 捐 物 入 城 。城 門 噎 不 得 關 , 敵 乃 自 斫 殺 己 民 , 然 後 得 闔 。 斬 首 獲 生, 凡 千 餘 人 。 〔 一 〕 其 所 生 得 , 皆 加 營 護 , 不 令 兵 士 干擾 侵 侮 。 將 家 屬 來 者 , 使 就 料 視 。 若 亡 其 妻 子 者 , 即 給衣 糧 , 厚 加 慰 勞 , 發 遣 令 還 , 或 有 感 慕 相 攜 而 歸 者 。 鄰境 懷 之 , 〔 二 〕 江 夏 功 曹 趙 濯 、 弋 陽 備 將 裴 生 及 夷 王 梅頤 等 , 並 帥 支 黨 來 附 遜 。 遜 傾 財 帛 , 周 贍 經 恤 。

In brief, it was a strategy by Lu and Zhuge, and you can see the result, (many of the enemies seeing the generosity of Lu and willed to follow him, you will know why after the quote is translated) from the several few sentences.


P.S: Lady Wu, I'm having exams recently, can you help translate the quote above?
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