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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:10 am

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:P.S: Lady Wu, I'm having exams recently, can you help translate the quote above?

Um... like I said in the Away/Back thread, I have a lot of papers to write in a month but I'm also out of town looking after my grandmother, so I don't have much time to do translations or whatnot. But if I may, here's from the translation by Lady Wu and Sonken, posted at KMA: :wink:

In the fifth year of Jiahe [AD 236], Sun Quan led a northern expedition to Wei, sending Lu Xun and Zhuge Jin to attack Xiangyang. Lu Xun had dispatched his trusted subordinate, Han Bian, to bring a report to Sun Quan; but on the way back, Han Bian encountered enemy soldiers at Mianzhong and was captured. When Zhuge Jin got news of this, he was extremely alarmed and wrote a letter to Lu Xun, saying, “His Majesty has just retreated and the enemies have captured Han Bian. They have thus gained our crucial military information. Moreover, the rivers have dried up—this is the time for us to make a hasty withdrawal.” Lu Xun did not reply to this letter, but rather spent his time supervising the planting of turnips and beans, and playing chess and games with his subordinates as if nothing had happened. Zhuge Jin said, “Lu Boyan is an ingenious person; surely he has a plan.” And so he paid a visit to Lu Xun. Lu Xun said to him, “The enemy knows that His Majesty had retreated, and they have no worries and can concentrate their forces against us. Moreover, they have already positioned their armies at strategic points. Our troops’ morale is wavering, so we should keep ourselves composed in order to calm the fears of our troops. Only then can we be flexible and devise strategies for a retreat. If we give any hints of withdrawal now, the enemies will think that we are afraid and continue to pursue our troops, which will undoubtedly lead to our defeat.”

Thereupon, Lu Xun and Zhuge Jin secretly conceived of a plan; Zhuge Jin was to lead the navy while Lu Xun commanded all the land troops feigning an attack on Xiangyang city. Since the enemies had always been fearful of Lu Xun, they immediately headed back into the city. Zhuge Jin thus led the navy to set off, while Lu Xun slowly reorganised the army, put on a false show of might, and proceeded on foot to board the ships. The enemies dared not pursue him. When the army reached Baiwei, Lu Xun announced that they would settle down in the region to hunt, while secretly ordering Generals Zhou Jun, Zhang Liang and others to invade Xinshi, Anlu and Shiyang counties of Jiangxia commandery. At that juncture, Shiyang county was bustling with activities and when Zhou Jun arrived suddenly, the people abandoned their possessions hastily and raced back into the city, resulting in a blockage at the city gates which prevented them from being closed. The enemies had to kill their own civilians in order to shut the city gates. The Wu army slaughtered and captured some one thousand people. Those captured alive were given protection, and the soldiers were not allowed to harass them. Those who brought their families forth to seek assistance were taken care of. And to those who had lost their wives and children, clothes and food were granted bountifully before they were sent off. There were some who were touched and impressed by this gesture, so they brought their families to submit to the Wu sovereignty. In the vicinities, civilians also came to submit to Wu. Zhao Zhuo, from the department of merit in Jiangxia, Pei Sheng, a general garrisoned at Geyang commandery, as well as Mei Yi, the leader of the barbarians were among those who led their subordinates and protegés to submit to Lu Xun. Lu Xun then distributed all the riches in solicitude.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I suppose one could argue that the >1000 killed/captured were not all civilians, or that Lu Xun did not intend for the civilian deaths to happen ("collateral damage"? :roll:). I mean, when you attack a city, there is bound to be civilian losses. The question is rather whether Lu Xun targetted the civilians especially or planned to have civilian deaths to be a component of his strategy.

Lu Xun and Zhuge Jin were ordered to attack Xiangyang. However, due to an unexpected element (their agent being captured), they had to beat a hasty retreat. The easiest way to escape is cutting through the Wei-held parts of Jiangxia--Xiangyang was not takeable. There were armies in Shiyang (I don't know where you people got Xinshi from)--the ones that were massacring their own people. Zhou Whatever that was sent to attack those counties did not take the market time into account, so it was accidental that the peasants were all there and forced the city guards to take such drastic measures as killing their own people. It is possible, then, to argue a case for Lu Xun (I hereby eat my words), that he did not intentionally cause the massacre to happen, and that he stopped as soon as the city was under control (unlike what happened at Xuzhou).
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:41 am

Lady Wu wrote:
(I don't know where you people got Xinshi from)

Me neither. The Xinshi thing was bought into the issue by Exar Kun (page 8 of this thread), I think you may find an answer from him.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

There are too many points we have discussed. It's hard to list them all, but you may take a brief look starting from page 4 of this thread.

I don't bohter to quote others' points here, but I'm quoting my first post to state the point I originally made:
Ling Tong ^0^ wrote:
I didn't find any record that saying Lu did butcher a thousand people neither.
Only by memory, Lu just wanted to confuse the enemy, but somehow the enemy was in a chaos and killed their own citizens after they were defeated by Lu.

After 7 pages of discussion, I finally got proof that Lu didn't butcher the 1000; in contrast, the 1000 were treated well by Lu.

Lady Wu wrote:
I suppose one could argue that the >1000 killed/captured were not all civilians, or that Lu Xun did not intend for the civilian deaths to happen

I suppose most of the 1000 were civilians, but Lu's intention might not be to cause deaths...
From the result, we may see why Lu did it.
There were some who were touched and impressed by this gesture, so they brought their families to submit to the Wu sovereignty. In the vicinities, civilians also came to submit to Wu. Zhao Zhuo, from the department of merit in Jiangxia, Pei Sheng, a general garrisoned at Geyang commandery, as well as Mei Yi, the leader of the barbarians were among those who led their subordinates and protegés to submit to Lu Xun.

Conquer the enermy by virtue instead of force is wiser. I think Lu's action had brought great echo and the result had proved its effect.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:19 am

I suppose most of the 1000 were civilians, but Lu's intention might not be to cause deaths...
From the result, we may see why Lu did it.


So what was his intention? Run into a lightly defended town, kill a thousand or so and take a few captive? Really taking a few thousand from Wei doesn't affect them in any way and absorbing that few doesnt do much for your cause either.

Conquer the enermy by virtue instead of force is wiser. I think Lu's action had brought great echo and the result had proved its effect.


So wait, let me get this. Lu Xun was virtueous because he slaughtered a thousand people and those that survived were treatly nicely? This is what your implying Lu Xun did:

Lu Xun: my generals i have come up with a brillant plan. I will surprise a lightly defended Wei town, murder its citizens aimlessly and for those that survive we entice them over some nice gifts! I'm one brillant general! :lol:
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:15 pm

Six_and_Up wrote:
So what was his intention? Run into a lightly defended town, kill a thousand or so and take a few captive? Really taking a few thousand from Wei doesn't affect them in any way and absorbing that few doesnt do much for your cause either.

I think you had answered you question.

From my point of view, Lu's intention was to show his generosity and the evil of Wei to the enemies, in order to lure them to switch side. There were 2 options: one is to follow a guy who attacked and captured the civilians but treat them good; the other option is to follow someone who killed the civilian just because he needed to get back behind the city wall.
I quote again the effect:
"There were some who were touched and impressed by this gesture, so they brought their families to submit to the Wu sovereignty. In the vicinities, civilians also came to submit to Wu. Zhao Zhuo, from the department of merit in Jiangxia, Pei Sheng, a general garrisoned at Geyang commandery, as well as Mei Yi, the leader of the barbarians were among those who led their subordinates and protegés to submit to Lu Xun. "
You see that won't affect Wei "in any way", but I think it did affect much.

Six_and_Up wrote:
So wait, let me get this. Lu Xun was virtueous because he slaughtered a thousand people and those that survived were treatly nicely? This is what your implying Lu Xun did:

Lu Xun: my generals i have come up with a brillant plan. I will surprise a lightly defended Wei town, murder its citizens aimlessly and for those that survive we entice them over some nice gifts! I'm one brillant general!

I think you had already answered your question again.
From the idea of Sun Zi, a general need not to be real virtueous to be smart, but he need to show virture to his enemy to be brilliant. And I think Lu had mastered the art of war, as you suggested, he was "one brilliant general."
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:22 pm

I disagree with both points of view above me.

First, L_T, Zhou Jun killed and captured >1000 in total. The people that he killed weren't treated well by him, obviously :roll:. Those who were treated well were the survivers. Also, it's not clear whether Lu Xun planned to have Shiyang taken by "virtue"--it's more likely that he had to comfort the people because of the tragic battle.

Then, 6+, I point out again that there is no proof that Lu Xun planned the massacre. He could have just ordered the towns secured as a retreat route from Xiangyang. There just happened to be a county fair at Shiyang, and Zhou Jun didn't have a better idea than to press on the attack at the expense of the civilians. It is thus possible to argue that Lu Xun did not intentionally cause that massacre. The intention was a safe retreat from the Xiangyang expedition all along.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:34 pm

I had the same assumption as yours, Lady Wu, you can find it on page 8 of this thread.
But Exar Kun rejected this idea by carrying out the "XinShi" thing; he insisted that it was not on the retreat route. (I'm not sure about his point, but I didn't oppose his idea that time because I can't find "XinShi" on the map.)
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:25 pm

Well, Exar is wrong then. First, the County Fair was held at Shiyang. Shiyang is labelled on William's map in KMA. Shiyang, the bio also says quite clearly, was a county in Jiangxia. Jiangxia is between Xiangyang and the rest of Wu. Therefore, if Lu Xun was anywhere near Xiangyang, going through the Wei-held parts of Jiangxia would be the quickest route home.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:13 pm

Exar is never wrong.Keep wishing. :twisted:

No sort of military action was required by Wu at Xinshi.Might I remind you Lady Wu that Xinshi is a county.
Exactly what military resistance would be there.The Commandant's bandit hunters maybe?Lu Xun is afraid of the almighty bandit killers and tax evasion collectors?

The Wei army had already decided against pursuit after he feinted at Xiangyang and sent the navy home.
There is no "secure Xinshi" and I dare you to try telling me what kind of "securing" would need to be done at an insignificant little county.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:31 pm

Exar Kun wrote:Exar is never wrong.Keep wishing. :twisted:

You wish. :lol:

No sort of military action was required by Wu at Xinshi.Might I remind you Lady Wu that Xinshi is a county.
Exactly what military resistance would be there.The Commandant's bandit hunters maybe?Lu Xun is afraid of the almighty bandit killers and tax evasion collectors?

My point, in case you didn't get it, is still that Xinshi, Anlu, and Shiyang are in their way. Military action was required because (a) they need to go through that area in order to get home, and (b) that area was not under their jurisdiction. It's as simple as that. Even if there was no soldiers at all in those cities, you still need a military force to go in in order to take over those cities; it's not like you can just walk into town all by your lonesome and declare it your own.

And if you think a border town would have no military force whatsoever, especially if the town is Wei, and its border is shared with Wu (which allegedly betrayed Wei, etc), I'm glad you weren't put in charge of Wei military affairs back then because a Wu victory would be way too easy. :P

There is no "secure Xinshi"

Of course not. We're talking about Shiyang all along. I don't know why you kept bringing up Xinshi.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:22 am

...
Is my face red.How the hell did I read Xinshi as the county?You'd think somone would have corrected me before now.Wuists are starting to lapse at their research. :P

*and thus Exar turns an embarassing mistake into valuable Wuist criticism*

My point, in case you didn't get it, is still that Xinshi, Anlu, and Shiyang are in their way. Military action was required because (a) they need to go through that area in order to get home, and (b) that area was not under their jurisdiction. It's as simple as that. Even if there was no soldiers at all in those cities, you still need a military force to go in in order to take over those cities; it's not like you can just walk into town all by your lonesome and declare it your own.

And if you think a border town would have no military force whatsoever, especially if the town is Wei, and its border is shared with Wu (which allegedly betrayed Wei, etc), I'm glad you weren't put in charge of Wei military affairs back then because a Wu victory would be way too easy.


No,you really don't need to take over those cities at all.There was no military force stationed there and if the Wu army simply kept their scouts out they could pass by without incident.Instead they cause a panic and instigate a massacre.

As to your last statement I have a nice story for you.Napoleon asked a general of his who was in charge of part of the border to create a plan for defending France.The general took his troops and strung them evenly across his designated defense area to which Napoleon asked whether he was trying to keep out smugglers.

There's a reason why fronts have defensive bastions.He Fei,Chang An,Yong An,Fan.It's because you can't stop an enemy by stringing troops all over the place,you need a few solid forts from where you can deploy.Shiyang is not such a fort.If there was a military force stationed there then it would have been one large enough to skirmish with whatever forces Lu Xun sent.
There was no such army.
Thus there was no threat,and no reason for the brutality.
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