Brutal Tactics

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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:06 am

Ling Tong:

You see that won't affect Wei "in any way", but I think it did affect much.


No it didn't. All it did was displace a few thousand people that Wei could afford to lose anyway. It brought no real advantages for Wu as they only added a few hundred (at most a thousand) people into their population.

From my point of view, Lu's intention was to show his generosity and the evil of Wei to the enemies, in order to lure them to switch side.


The 'evil' of Wei, thats taking it to far (even accounting for your wu bias). Lu Xun just bribed the people, plain and simple. I'm sure if someone from Wei gave them a better offer they'd take it.

There were 2 options: one is to follow a guy who attacked and captured the civilians but treat them good; the other option is to follow someone who killed the civilian just because he needed to get back behind the city wall.


Maybe you should remember the fact that regardless of whether Lu Xun ordered it or not, Wu killed civilians that day. You seem to be conveniently forgoting that Wu's soldiers actually killed people that day and only sought to 'capture'. Wishful thinking.

And now Lady Wu:

Then, 6+, I point out again that there is no proof that Lu Xun planned the massacre. He could have just ordered the towns secured as a retreat route from Xiangyang. There just happened to be a county fair at Shiyang, and Zhou Jun didn't have a better idea than to press on the attack at the expense of the civilians. It is thus possible to argue that Lu Xun did not intentionally cause that massacre. The intention was a safe retreat from the Xiangyang expedition all along.


Lu Xun may not have planned it, but that does not make him any less responsible for the events that took place. It appears he ordered the assault he secured the retreat, which is what make his actions appears brutal. Now he may have been cautious, but from the information we have the actions appear inhumane (whether or not Lu Xun is responsible for ordering it or not, his responsible at least for it happening in the first place).
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:34 am

Since Exar has demonstrated a preference to deal with arguments First-In-First-Out, and I stand in opposition to him, I'll respond LIFO:

Six_and_Up wrote:Lu Xun may not have planned it, but that does not make him any less responsible for the events that took place.

Hence he tried to compensate people's losses, giving out food and money to try to make up for what happened. This is responsibility. How many other commanders do you know try to pay civilians back for "collateral damage"?

Now he may have been cautious, but from the information we have the actions appear inhumane

Well, the Wei guards were actually killing their own civilians. That is inhumane. If Lu Xun told his men, "Go kill civilians until they surrender," that would have been inhumane. However, as it stands, I see little reason to call him inhumane.

(whether or not Lu Xun is responsible for ordering it or not, his responsible at least for it happening in the first place).

No. Sun Quan's responsible, as the Xiangyang expedition was ordered by SQ in the first place. Oh, wait, Sun Ce was responsible because he died early, leaving SQ to rule Wu. But when you think about it, isn't Lady Wu ultimately responsible, for bearing SQ and SC in the first place? :lol:

While Lu Xun could have some responsibility (he could have, for example, stayed a scholar and have nothing to do with killing on the field), I think it's not right to attribute the brutality and the inhumaneness of that event to Lu Xun.

---------------

And now, Exar Kun:

Exar Kun wrote:You'd think somone would have corrected me before now.

You know what, just one post above where you wrote that,

Lady Wu wrote:First, the County Fair was held at Shiyang.

:roll:

I tried to spare you this moment.

Exar Kun wrote:No,you really don't need to take over those cities at all.There was no military force stationed there and if the Wu army simply kept their scouts out they could pass by without incident.Instead they cause a panic and instigate a massacre.

No military force. Cool. May I know who was killing the Wei citizens from within?

Furthermore, if there was no military force within the city at all, a sane prefect would have surrendered. Rather, whoever it was, he ordered the city gates shut (and do what? Hope that the Wu troops would get bored and leave?)--which, I think, implies a considerable force within the city as he thought it'd be possible to hold out agains the attack.

As to your last statement I have a nice story for you.

For sure, it wouldn't do to have a human chain all around the border of Wei. But if a huge Wu force was attacking the area, and even SQ himself was mobilized, wouldn't you think that they'd put more defence troops in Jiangxia, which was smack in between Xiangyang and Jianye?
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:09 am

One comment to Lady Wu in regards to the prefect who closed the gates.
If he had no military force it wouldn't be foolish to close the gates, since he has no troops to defend his people with he must rely on his walls. Keeping the gates open is like inviting the enemy troops in. If he is loyal to his leaders then he doesn't simply want to hand his city over so he closes his gates and hopes the enemy will leave him alone. At least that is how i would see it.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:57 am

If he is loyal to his leaders then he doesn't simply want to hand his city over so he closes his gates and hopes the enemy will leave him alone. At least that is how i would see it.

I have a different view on that. I think the one who sealed the gate didn't do it due to loyalty but fear of losing his own life.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:39 am

Well, the Wei guards were actually killing their own civilians. That is inhumane. If Lu Xun told his men, "Go kill civilians until they surrender," that would have been inhumane. However, as it stands, I see little reason to call him inhumane.


I called the actions inhumane, but Lu Xun is not inhumane read my post carefully. I attribute Lu Xun to being the man responsible for causing the inhumane event (intentional or unintentional it may have been).

No. Sun Quan's responsible, as the Xiangyang expedition was ordered by SQ in the first place. Oh, wait, Sun Ce was responsible because he died early, leaving SQ to rule Wu. But when you think about it, isn't Lady Wu ultimately responsible, for bearing SQ and SC in the first place?

While Lu Xun could have some responsibility (he could have, for example, stayed a scholar and have nothing to do with killing on the field), I think it's not right to attribute the brutality and the inhumaneness of that event to Lu Xun.


Considering that Lu Xun ordered the attack on the town, yes i'll say his responsible. Theres a limit to the chain of command and Lu Xun is at the very top, like Zhuge Liang after Jieting.

Furthermore, if there was no military force within the city at all, a sane prefect would have surrendered. Rather, whoever it was, he ordered the city gates shut (and do what? Hope that the Wu troops would get bored and leave?)--which, I think, implies a considerable force within the city as he thought it'd be possible to hold out agains the attack.


Well there are several x-factors to think about there. One is whether or not Wu had any seige equipment with them. I bring this up because its not known whether Lu Xun wanted to just raid the area or commit to a full-scale invasion with the intent of capturing cities. I'm consider the latter unlikely. If it was just several thousand Wu troops with no seige then by all means i commend the captain for closing the gate, since Wu soldiers are not known for scaling walls without any equipment (in which case they would get bored and leave :lol: ).

But despite all that the question remains, did they close the gate for cowardice or loyalty? I'm inclined to say a bit of both, but more cowardice than loyalty considering its safer facing an enemy with a wall between you (and besides not everyone can be Zhang Liao).
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:21 pm

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:
If he is loyal to his leaders then he doesn't simply want to hand his city over so he closes his gates and hopes the enemy will leave him alone. At least that is how i would see it.

I have a different view on that. I think the one who sealed the gate didn't do it due to loyalty but fear of losing his own life.


You know that is a totally viable reason as well. It is like Six_and_Up just said it was probably a bit of both. He was kinda loyal to Wei and he also was afraid of anything happening to himself so he just colosed the gates. Nothing says he has to be one or the other.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:39 pm

Lady Wu wrote:No military force. Cool. May I know who was killing the Wei citizens from within?

Furthermore, if there was no military force within the city at all, a sane prefect would have surrendered. Rather, whoever it was, he ordered the city gates shut (and do what? Hope that the Wu troops would get bored and leave?)--which, I think, implies a considerable force within the city as he thought it'd be possible to hold out agains the attack.


Of course you may inquire.And I'll be glad to tell you. :)
It was the city guards of course.There's a difference between city guards and Wei regular army.The guards are there to keep law and order,monitor the gates and protect the Magistrate,they aren't kept in numbers large enough to skirmish with an army.
Remember the Commandant provincial rank.The Commandant keeps forces in the province sufficient to deal with local needs.

And why would the Magistrate have surrendered?The Wu forces made no advance on the city.All they did was start slaughtering people.Why should he jump the gun and surrender before the Wu army even makes their interest in the city clear.If they besieged him then sure,surrender time.But until then any action along those lines is premature.

Lady Wu wrote:For sure, it wouldn't do to have a human chain all around the border of Wei. But if a huge Wu force was attacking the area, and even SQ himself was mobilized, wouldn't you think that they'd put more defence troops in Jiangxia, which was smack in between Xiangyang and Jianye?


You overestimate the danger those areas were in.Firstly if you check the map,there's really not much of a place to station a large army out of in Wei held Jiangxia quite simply.That's why the defensive positions at He Fei and Xiangyang/Fan look so much better.Both bases can cover Jiangxia at the same time.
Additionally it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for a full scale Wu invasion to be cocentrated in Jiangxia because quite simply,what will they take?There is no strategic goal like He Fei there and so Wu armies would be stuck with badly fortified county towns.And then it's either defend those counties by turning those towns into fortresses,or leave an army camped in the middle of Jiangxia,which is impossible.
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