Whats the deal wit all the Ma Chao haters?

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Re: Whats the deal wit all the Ma Chao haters?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:21 am

@Dong Zhou- I like what you mean by we don't see the softer side of Ma Chao thus it is harder to sympathize with him. I think that come across in a lot of Shu-Han officers. I think Guan Yu is a great example, compared to how long his career is his bio is very short. Look at Liu Bei, it is like five times longer then Guan Yu's and his career is barely a few years longer then Guan Yu's. Maybe like thirty percent of Guan Yu's life is documented, Ma Chao suffers a similar fate. We know that he fought against Yuan Shao though Pang De takes the highlight of that campaign. Then we skip to Han Sui and his invasion of Tong Pass which is very sparse on information in his own bio.

It can be very difficult to sympathize with people when we get so little information about them. Cao Cao was a monster yet we get details on his life which paint him in a different light, he is a real person who loved his children, cultivated talent, and preformed many great deeds both on and off the battlefield. In cases like Ma Chao we don't really get details about his life plus he died relatively young at forty seven.
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Re: Whats the deal wit all the Ma Chao haters?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:39 pm

Your right LiuBeiwasGreat. Guan Yu is good with subordinates but we never see that in action, only due to Chen Shou's comment is that there. People can see the arrogant side but not the good side. We don't see Ma Chao out of battle apart from one sad letter near the end of his life, all see is the brutal war and not how he got shaped by the Ma vs Han Sui wars (for example).
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Re: Whats the deal wit all the Ma Chao haters?

Unread postby Iain » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:33 am

A shame Ma Chao is not remembered better, he may not have done very much of note in his career, but what he did do he made an impact on his foes and the people around him. In the end its what you do well in a short time that matters not how much you do overall.
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Re: Whats the deal wit all the Ma Chao haters?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:58 pm

Ma Chao's problem is that he spent most of his life as a very minor warlord and the son of a very minor warlord. All of Liangzhou had a population of ~600,000 (less than many *commanderies*), plus Liangzhou was divided between him, Han Sui, Song Jian, and various even-more-minor warlords. I've never seen exactly how Liangzhou is divided up (save for Song Jian's capital being near the middle of the Jincheng/Longxi border), but I imagine that Ma Teng and then Ma Chao only had around 200,000 people.

For reference, Jin Xuan, Han Xuan, Liu Du, and Zhao Fan -- all of whom are considered mere footnotes in Jing's history -- ruled [however briefly] over populations of 250,000, 1,050,000, 1,000,000, and 500,000. Similarly, Guan Tong (Yuan Tan's last holdout, not Guan Yu's grandson) held out with Le'an and its 400,000+ people.
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