Dong Zhuo like or hate?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Dong Zhuo...like or hate?

I like him
18
24%
I hate him
56
76%
 
Total votes : 74

Dong Zhuo like or hate?

Unread postby Devilrai » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:29 pm

I would just like to know who likes Dong Zhuo as a ruler...I see that some people actually do like Dong Zhuo, but I would like to settle this once and for all.

I personally hate him, he did nothing but terrorize the people of China, he himself took down Emperor Shao in favor Emperor Xian...he has no right to do so. And he sat on his butt all day doing nothing but eat and the enjoy the dancers in front of him, he had no value of a ruler at all.

Okay, let the settlement begin...
User avatar
Devilrai
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:09 am

Unread postby Morg » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:06 pm

Hooray, a Dong Zhuo debate! I like Dong Zhuo but I'll come back to that in a minute. I have to say first that I disagree entirely with the idea that Dong Zhuo had no value whatsoever. When Dong Zhuo came to power he undid a lot of the damage done by the Ten Regular Attendants like reinstating to office those that had been stripped of power. While those acts were admittedly designed to win the support of the people, it was still good work which carries merit.

As for why I like Dong Zhuo. For me, the guy was one of the most straightforward people of the whole era. He had no hidden agenda, he simply did what he wanted to and made no excuses for it. The man was asked to come to the capital in order to end the strife caused by the eunchs and to bring stability and that is what he did initially. The deposition of the Emperor is totally blown out of proportion because, let's face it, the wrong Emperor was on the throne in the first place! Emperor Ling wanted Xian to replace him but it was He Jin who convinced Yuan Shao to enter the palace with arms and forcibly have Bian (He Jin's nephew) made Emperor. Xian's mother had been poisoned by He Jin's sister and later He Jin poisoned Xian's adopted mother as ways of cementing their power. Therefore, Dong Zhuo simply undid another wrong.

Did the man flaunt the laws of the land while he was at the palace? Yes he did. Initially his guards carried arms while at the palace (made sense bearing in mind the turmoil that occured when he arrived) and later he took to wearing armour but only after an assassination attempt was made on him. Did he take the royal concubines as his own? Yes, and while that is frowned upon, please someone tell me what a nine year old boy is going to do with concubines? Other infractions of rules, I feel, can be often put down to Dong Zhuo's upbringing on the frontier.

Slaughtering people at the dinner table is another arguement made against Dong Zhuo. While this was admittedly unsettling, it was an effective way of ensuring that resistance against him was minimal.

Now let's get to the big one: moving the capital, buring the old one and grave robbing. Luoyang was not easily defendable and it made sense from a strategic point of view to relocate to the infinitely more defendable Chang'an. The account of him marching the people with him seems somewhat biased as later on, when Liu Bei marches a city full of people to Changban, it is told in an entirely different light. Burning the capital and emptying the graves of valuables are common sense to me. It simply does not make sense to allow a city that is in good working order and riches to fall into enemy hands. If the capital had not been burned, then the alliance would have had a good base to operate from and would enable them to lauch an all out attack on Dong Zhuo's forces and the people with him. Burning the capital resulted in the alliance staying put with only Cao Cao's army pursuing Dong Zhuo.

So there you have it.
"If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you." - Cao Cao to Pang De
User avatar
Morg
The Man
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:46 am

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:30 am

The historical Dong Zhuo, the general of the Han before the uprisings, was an able man with as much, if not more, merits in battle than Sun Jian. He was in no way an idiot or a slacker, he knew exactly what he was doing at all times, even when he took over the throne.

I don't agree with his blatant disregard of propriety, nor with his cruel and vile acts. But then again, Cao Cao was probably just as cruel as him. The only difference was the way they presented themselves. Dong Zhuo was a blunt, uncultured and unmannered man. Whereas Cao Cao was refined, cunning and devious when it came to talking to people or getting rid of his enemies.

His personality flaws were his downfall, not his abilities.
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby SamSpade21 » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:50 am

Morg wrote:Did he take the royal concubines as his own? Yes, and while that is frowned upon, please someone tell me what a nine year old boy is going to do with concubines?


Let's not forget that in Shakespeare's time, age 11-13 was a fruitful time to begin looking for marriage. His characters, Romeo & Juliet, were roughly that age as the play was meant to be written. But yeah, 9-yr old boy with concubines...yee.

Sam
SamSpade21
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:19 pm
Location: The Korova Milkbar

Big bad Dong

Unread postby Iain » Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:22 am

People seem to forget that Cao Cao also did a lot of things that werent really considered 'polite' behaviour to the Emperor, Dong Zhuo just didnt have Cao Cao's rather subtle approach.

Dong Zhuo saw a weakness in the Han and the Emperor and he seized the moment to take control, once he had Lu Bu onboard that made matters much easier, he exploited a weakness in the Han that anyone might have done.

I dont agree with his dinner habits or his raiding of helpless people, but he took control when chaos was about, he dared to take control too I think that shows ambition, and many people went along with him aside from a couple of failed assassination attempts (one by Cao Cao) he seemed very much in control.

Unlike Yuan Shao who couldnt even stop his own officers from arguing with each other or direct a proper offensive against Dong Zhuo.
Dictators and tyrants over the years have usually had some ability in them to get to where they were.
User avatar
Iain
Lord of Nanchang
 
Posts: 4753
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:55 am
Location: Lost in the fun world of Vana'diel.

Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:11 pm

I suppose you could say that I hate Dong Zhuo. From what I've read he isn't all that nice when it comes to politics, though he is pretty smart when it came to manipulating the Emporer's rule.

Basically(IMO) Dong Zhuo used power to his advantage to get women and tons of gifts for himself. I don't believe he ever really felt as if anyone were above him. Thats what probably drove Lu Bu to kill him. Even though Lu Bu was power hungry himself, he didn't want to be put under anyone. Like father like adopted son I say. :P
A beautiful face can win popularity, but a beautiful hand can win respect.

~Which one do you prefer?~

"I've killed a helluva lotta people to get to this one. And now, I'm gonna Kill Bill"
User avatar
Rurouni Kenshin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:04 pm
Location: Searching for the Death List Five

Unread postby Master Kongming » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:39 pm

Im not sure how anyone could like him. His atricities are terrible.
知道敵人, 認識自己, 並且勝利從未是疑義, 不是在一百次爭鬥。
User avatar
Master Kongming
Initiate
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:26 am

Unread postby Han Liang » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:46 pm

Morg wrote: For me, [Dong Zhuo] was one of the most straightforward people of the whole era. He had no hidden agenda, he simply did what he wanted to and made no excuses for it.


Wha--? Dong Zhuo called himself a Han loyalist, when he was tring to end the Han. The straightforward one is Zhang Jiao, IMNSHBSPIAHMO.
User avatar
Han Liang
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:16 pm
Location: NO MORE CELERY MONSTER!

Unread postby Morg » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:38 pm

Han Liang wrote:Wha--? Dong Zhuo called himself a Han loyalist, when he was tring to end the Han.

How exactly was Dong Zhuo trying to end the Han?
"If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you." - Cao Cao to Pang De
User avatar
Morg
The Man
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:46 am

Unread postby Deng Ai » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:51 pm

Morg wrote:How exactly was Dong Zhuo trying to end the Han?


Although I don't think Dong Zhuo was trying to end the Han, the best reason of is that by using the emperor as a puppet, Dong Zhuo would eventually try to usurp the throne and make the throne his.
Deng Ai
Student
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:21 am
Location: New York

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved