If Liu Bei was the emperor

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

If Liu Bei was the emperor

Unread postby Starscream » Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:21 am

Not just Shu Han Zhao Lie Di, but as the emperor of Han, sitting on the throne instead of Han Xian Di, do you think he would fare better against Cao Cao? Would he be able to convince Cao Cao to relinquish his military powers and return them to the throne? Or will Liu Bei end up as Cao Cao's puppet like Han Xian Di?
”太慢了。“
User avatar
Starscream
Decepticon Air Commander
 
Posts: 2144
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:36 am
Location: 真仙殿

Unread postby Koichi » Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:33 am

It's tough to say, Liu Bei didn't have any outrageously unscrupulous subordinates like Cao Cao was to Han Xiandi. For the most part, Liu Bei's faction (Wei Yan included) was quite loyal to him. Does this "what if..." scenario include Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Zhuge Liang in Liu Bei's court? If so Cao Cao could do nothing to oust him.
User avatar
Koichi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:49 am
Location: NYC

Unread postby Andrew » Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:34 am

I think Liu Bei would rise againest Cao Cao eventually, like when he was in Guan Du, and would flee to the South and rally those loyal to the Han againest Cao, and maybe all the leaders would join together and destroy him.
Formerly known as XiahouDun-22
Andrew
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:48 pm
Location: Where the streets have no names

Unread postby Starscream » Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:55 am

Koichi wrote:Does this "what if..." scenario include Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Zhuge Liang in Liu Bei's court? If so Cao Cao could do nothing to oust him.

I would say this "what if" scenario is focused on Liu Bei's skills in politics and his unnerving charisma to persuade people. In this scenario, he might not have Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and the rest of his regulars with him, but that does not exclude the possibility of him attracting other types of talents to his cause. Similarly, Cao Cao could draw people to himself as well. :wink:
”太慢了。“
User avatar
Starscream
Decepticon Air Commander
 
Posts: 2144
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:36 am
Location: 真仙殿

Unread postby Kong Wen » Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:09 am

Well... if Xian was just directly replaced with Liu Bei, then I do think things would have been different. First of all, Liu Bei was much more loyal to the Han than Xian. I know that sounds strange and contradictory, but it is true when you look at it a certain way. Liu Bei wouldn't have put up with Cao Cao's actions.

First of all, I think Liu Bei would be able to inspire a greater anti-Cao movement/sentiment than Xian could. People were afraid of Cao Cao, so Xian only got minimal support. Liu Bei would be able to inspire people to overcome their fear of Cao, even at the cost of their lives. Secondly, I don't think Liu Bei would have been as intimidated by Cao as Xian was. He would have tried to scheme and reduce Cao's influence, even if he knew it would cost him his life.
"If I had to do my life over, I would change every single thing I have done."
— Raymond Douglas Davies, 1967
User avatar
Kong Wen
Golden God
Golden God
 
Posts: 11807
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:38 pm
Location: Canada

Unread postby Lu Wei » Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:00 am

Cao Cao's whole front of supporting the Han would be demolished, his credibility gone. Liu Bei might be able to rally an ACTUAL Imperial Army, with officers like Xu Huang, Xu Shu, Xun Wenruo, etc etc.

It also depends on the situation/and time we stick Liu Bei in.
Lu Wei
Langzhong
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:07 am
Location: The great state of Tennessee

Unread postby Six_and_Up » Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:26 am

The problem here is are you considering that Liu Bei is passed on the throne when his a small child or when he is in his early teens-thirties. Because if he aquires the throne at a young age, then i doubt that he would be the strong-willed person that he became in history. However, if there happens to a huge massacre of the royal family and the throne is passed on to Liu Bei when he is in his twenties or thirties, then he would stand a good chance against Cao Cao and Dong Zhou.
Currently playing: Dragon Quest VIII
User avatar
Six_and_Up
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:35 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Unread postby GuangRong » Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:34 am

The Problem is not as much Emperor's Xian character, but the breakdown of the system and authority of the Emperor..



Pple like Dong Zhuo/ Cao Cao dun start out with ambitions of a new Dynasty ,.
they gradually became bolder , as they're drunked with power and realise the emperor inadequacies..


As for what kind of Emperor Liu Bei, would be, it depends on which Liu Bei we're talking about in the 3k timeline..
Dun forget that Liu Bei's Char and aspirations grows ..as the Novel goes on

Only an older and wiser and more established Liu Bei have what it takes to restored a bit of authority , but it'll be a slow and delicate process to pry power away from the Lords, les we have another armed rebelion ..

a Younger, zhuge Liang-less, Liu Bei , would do well to preserve what little bit of the authority the Throne has , but theres' a high chance he might slipped into Liu Shan mode..


Just being emperor , Xian has as much currecny as Liu Bei. ,atleast with all the "good" chars in the game..
And Xian shown that he's smart and have abit of backbone, but is powerless as he dun have a personal military Power as back up..

So.. a pre- Peach garden Liu Bei is as powerless as Emperor xian ..
Magister mundi sum!!
User avatar
GuangRong
Langzhong
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:45 am
Location: Oblivion

Unread postby Koichi » Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:49 am

You guys have to keep in mind, even without Zhuge Liang Liu Bei has a number of striking personal qualities.

We're talking about a guy who knew from the beginning he wanted to restore the Han. This ambition only wavered at the loss of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. A guy who started out selling straw mats and shoes died as the Emperor of Shu-Han. Liu Bei's tremendous determination defied adversity. Being reduced to 1,000 defeated soldiers, 3 loyal generals, and one city did not convince him to give up.

Liu Bei at a young age showed his ability to rule a territory. After the Yellow Turbans, he was given a small administrative post. A corrupt official tried to frame him. Yet he was unable to get a single villager to testify against Liu Bei. The people adored him that much. Liu Bei also had the foresight to spare Dong Zhuo and the corrupt official from the wrath of Zhang Fei.

In short, Liu Bei proved himself a benevolent governor with a strong personality. Even at young age, given a legitimate title (Emperor), a huge reserve of loyal officials (Xiandi had them), and the resources of a country at his disposal, Cao Cao would've been unable to make a move.
User avatar
Koichi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:49 am
Location: NYC

Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:06 pm

Well first off he would start just as a Emperor basically, doing his own thing with politics. But with Liu Bei's kindness and ability to not say no(overexxageration), he would probably accept someone like Cao Cao into his service. But Cao Cao might not be inclined to join as an official of the court. He may rather go straight to making Wei and attacking.

And if you take a look at the Emperor's army, you see that they did nothing to protect the Emperor really against Cao Cao. So if he was infact in the court he would probably do the same to Liu Bei by manipulating him. And Cao Cao would most likely rule over China since he could concentrate the majority of his power on Wu and Liu Zhang in Shu.
A beautiful face can win popularity, but a beautiful hand can win respect.

~Which one do you prefer?~

"I've killed a helluva lotta people to get to this one. And now, I'm gonna Kill Bill"
User avatar
Rurouni Kenshin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:04 pm
Location: Searching for the Death List Five

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved