Cao Ren's defence of Fan castle.

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Cao Ren's defence of Fan castle.

Unread postby Man Chong » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:18 am

Now when I was arguing Lu Wei, I went to read some RTK comics, and noticed something.

In the comic, about 5-6 feet of Fan castle was sticking out, with Cao Ren and his trops standing on the top. Guan Yu was right outside, in a boat, taunting them.

Now my question is, isn't it actually EASIER to defend a city like that? I mean, you're attacking a castle, and say you want to climb over the walls with ladders. Now below the ladders are small boats for I doubt Guan Yu had any of those big huge boats, and how stable are the boats? The ladders can be easily pushed off since the boat rocks back and forth and it's not easy balancing a ladder.

And what other ways did Guan Yu have to scale the walls? Ladders are the only thing I know. I'm not sure if Guan Yu had catapults, or could buil them, and siege rams were out of question...

So yea, does the water makes it, in a way, easier to defend?
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Re: Cao Ren's defence of Fan castle.

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:53 am

Man Chong wrote:In the comic, about 5-6 feet of Fan castle was sticking out, with Cao Ren and his trops standing on the top. Guan Yu was right outside, in a boat, taunting them.


Historically, only a few feet of the castle could be seen.

Man Chong wrote:And what other ways did Guan Yu have to scale the walls? Ladders are the only thing I know. I'm not sure if Guan Yu had catapults, or could buil them, and siege rams were out of question...


It'd be kind of hard to scale a wall from a boat, wouldn't it? Catapults on water? I don't think so.

In any case, I don't see how defending a city, struck by a flood or not, cut off from all outside communication, with morale quickly dropping, running out of supplies and food, and being outnumbered by the enemy would be easy.
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Unread postby Man Chong » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:27 am

Historically, only a few feet of the castle could be seen.


Well, let's say 2 English feet. Cilmbing about 2 feet of wall, while standing on a wall moving about...and enemies above you stabbing at you...it's still pretty hard...

It'd be kind of hard to scale a wall from a boat, wouldn't it? Catapults on water? I don't think so.


Yea, so if the remaining wall was tall enough, i doubt Guan Yu can get through....

But do you have any exact measurements? Cao Ren's bios sai "several feet" Now I'm sure that's in Chi, and I don't know how many feet in a chi....

In any case, I don't see how defending a city cut off from all outside communication, with morale quickly dropping, running out of supplies and food, and being outnumbered by the enemy would be easy.


Yea, there were other variables, and Cao Ren overcame all that, and thus is admirable. But the "outnumbered" factor may not do much when you can't even climb the walls...

But my question is, can Guan Yu's troops climb the walls? If they could, my admiration of Cao Ren'll go up immensely...
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:34 pm

Man Chong wrote:Well, let's say 2 English feet. Cilmbing about 2 feet of wall, while standing on a wall moving about...and enemies above you stabbing at you...it's still pretty hard...


I highly doubt that Guan Yu's men could have just climbed over the walls. If they could have, they would have surely done it.

Man Chong wrote:But do you have any exact measurements? Cao Ren's bios sai "several feet" Now I'm sure that's in Chi, and I don't know how many feet in a chi....


I don't remember exactly how many feet are in one chi. My guess is maybe 1.5?

Man Chong wrote:Yea, there were other variables, and Cao Ren overcame all that, and thus is admirable. But the "outnumbered" factor may not do much when you can't even climb the walls...


The being outnumbered factor would have had great impact on the mindset of Cao Ren's men, though. They had no communication with the outside whatsoever, so they would have had no clue when or if reinforcements were coming. Add to that the lack of food and supplies(so much so that Cao Ren had to kill a horse to feed his men). And here outside, there were many enemies encircling the city, looking for a way in...I mean, the walls may have been able to keep the enemy out, but how could Cao Ren and his men be so from the inside, right?

Man Chong wrote:But my question is, can Guan Yu's troops climb the walls? If they could, my admiration of Cao Ren'll go up immensely...


My personal take is no, they could not.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:47 pm

Lady Zhuge wrote:I don't remember exactly how many feet are in one chi. My guess is maybe 1.5?

I thought a chi was just under 10 inches (say, 9.5 inches or so).
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 pm

Kong Zhengshu wrote:
Lady Zhuge wrote:I don't remember exactly how many feet are in one chi. My guess is maybe 1.5?

I thought a chi was just under 10 inches (say, 9.5 inches or so).


You're a lot closer than I was. I just looked it up and 1 Chi = 9.05 inches.
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Unread postby Man Chong » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:39 pm

Erm....so lets assume "several Chi" is five chi....

so that's...ABOUT 45 inches...and that'sabout 3 feet 9

Whoa, so Cao Ren didn't have to deal with Guan Yu's troops that much then....
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Unread postby Lu Wei » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:24 pm

Um, it if was a 3-foot climb, all they would have to do is swing their leg over and walk onto the wall...am I missing something??
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Unread postby Man Chong » Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:52 pm

Er....3 feet would be still pretty hard to get on, especially when there's enemies above hacking at you.
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Unread postby Lu Wei » Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:10 pm

It wouldnt be that hard. And the enemies hacking part is there at all sieges. It would be nigh impossible for the few men Cao Ren had to defend the entire castle, starving, and with no hope. I mean, thats about as effective as building a three-foot wall around your castle. Where are you getting this about Guan Yu couldnt get to his men? I think I may be missing something here...
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