Yuan Shu vs. Yuan Shao

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Yuan Shu vs. Yuan Shao

Unread postby Lord Yuan Shao » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:04 pm

I´m actually readind the novel,by chapter 16-17 and I see more than strange the fact of see Yuan Shu in battle vs. Lu Bu,Sun Ce and Liu Bei without making a minimum noise that could alert his mid-brother and rival Yuan Shao.

Can we think that in the history the events related were somehow altered to not show the rivality between the 2 Yuans?

Don´t you think that is a rare coincidence that Yuan Shu and Yuan Shao,having different goals,don´t battle for the hereditary seal?

I personally think that is almost impossible that Yuan Shao don´t know nothing about the Seal...any spy would tell him about it for a reward!!

I don´t think that Yuan Shao left Yuan Shu become Emperor.
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Unread postby Koichi » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:50 pm

The Yuan half-brothers had political differences. Yuan Shao was as good as a rival to Yuan Shu. When Yuan Shu was under attack by 4 warlords, Yuan Shao had no interest in helping him out. Cao Cao, Liu Bei, and Lu Bu's territories are located between the Yuan brothers. Yuan Shao didn't make a serious attempt to take the seal but was interested in the idea that Yuan Shu could bring it to him. Unfortunately Liu Bei intercepted Yuan Shu and put an end to this sorry enterprise.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:22 pm

:lol: i don't like them both but i like Yuan Shao better because he did not try to become king.
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Unread postby James » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:22 pm

It is quite possible that Yuan Shao didn’t yet know of Yuan Shu’s acquisition of the Hereditary Seal, and even if he did, I’m not sure he’d have actually attacked Yuan Shu to get it. While they were not close allies, it appears that neither were truly opposed to the other enough to actively move against them over simple reasons (maybe political support and support among the populace would have been affected, and that concerned them). Sanguo yanyi later has him willing to accept his brother into his lands to obtain the gem, but Shu died before he could arrive.

On the other hand, Yuan Shao was interested in bringing the Emperor into his territory, most likely for power, much as Cao Cao did. He commanded Cao Cao to more north with the Emperor, bringing him into Yuan lands, but Cao Cao refused (Yuan Shao had already been advised to assist the Emperor to bring him under his wing, but at the time he declined the advice). This from Yuan Shao, Sanguozhi.
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Unread postby Lord Yuan Shao » Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Let´s discuss this little more:

I´m not agree,James.If they don´t fight because the own infliuence of the family on the people...why then Yuan Shu is troubling the land freely without the approbation of the own whole Yuan family?

Yuan Shao can be fighting or watching Gongzun Zan,or taking care of the affairs of the North...is not a handicap to hear perfectly what is doing your brother on his territory.

Hu Lao Gate,for example...Sun Jian finded the seal,Yuan Shao don´t wanted that Sun Jian go away with it.And do you think that Yuan Shao is not going to do the same with Yuan Shu?You are wrong.

When Yuan Shao seeked glory for himself?
You are forgotting that in the period of the alliance vs. Dong Zhuo he rejected a lot of time the appointment of Grand Commander...he only wanted to depose Dong Zhuo...when all the bunch of leaders reached Luoyang,all they were the ones saying that they not wanted to pursuit Dong Zhuo to Chang An...not the incapability of Yuan Shao.
What do you expect of Yuan Shao if the rest of leaders only wanted to return home? Only Cao Cao wanted to pursuit them...
Yuan Shao not have the power to convince all them,anyway...

So basically I´m saying that Yuan Shao has been hidden too much in the book...only showing his face to engage the defeat at Guan Du...and now YES ...with all kinds of details related.This isn´t much convincent.
But of course there are only 3 kingdoms...
Yuan Shao: "The brave person rather faces death in the battle than seeks safety behind a wall!"
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Unread postby Lord Yuan Shao » Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:44 pm

I´m saying too that there isn´t any constance that Yuan Shao not was watching the situation.

Is anyone that knows something more about Yuan Shao that not be DW?
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Unread postby Koichi » Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:12 am

Lord Yuan Shao wrote:I´m saying too that there isn´t any constance that Yuan Shao not was watching the situation.

Is anyone that knows something more about Yuan Shao that not be DW?


Dude not to offend you but please check your grammar. Your post was really hard to follow. I'm guessing you want to defend Yuan Shao, so I'll respond with passages from the novel. Yuan Shao was portrayed as an opportunistic power-grubber just like most of the warlords that get pasted on Cao Cao's ascension to power.

No reply was possible and the guests dispersed. Cao Cao saw that the others mistrusted him, and in his heart knew that nothing could be accomplished. So he led off his force to Yanzhou Region.


At this point in the novel Yuan Shao was lacking leadership. He failed to hold the alliance together and accomplish their objectives. Yuan Shao was the commander of the Eight Duke Alliance. Yet he was not commanding. When the lesser generals didn't feel like pursuing Dong Zhuo, he did nothing to change their mind. As such, their goal of deposing Dong Zhuo failed to be accomplished.


Then one of Yuan Shao's advisers, Feng Ji, said to him, "You are really the strongest power here about. Why then depend upon another for food? Jizhou Region is rich and wide. Why not seize it?"
"I have no good plan," replied Yuan Shao.
"You could secretly send a letter to Gongsun Zan, asking him to attack, promising him your support. Imperial Protector Han Fu of Jizhou, being incapable, must ask you to take over his region, and you will get it without lifting a finger."


Then you have this. It's pretty self-explanatory. Seizing Jizhou had nothing to do with restoring the Han but enhancing his own power.

Once again, during the conflict in Xuzhou, the forces of Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Lu Bu are positioned between the Yuan brothers. Even if he wanted to get Yuan Shu, it's easier said than done. When Yuan Shu tried retreating to his brother's territory, he was intercepted.
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Unread postby Sun Zhongmou » Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:57 pm

It's pretty simple. Yuan Shao is a moron. Yuan Shu is an idiot. They are both an embarassment to their illustrious ancestors.
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Unread postby overlord of the Jin » Sun Jan 18, 2004 7:00 pm

Zilong of Shu wrote::lol: i don't like them both but i like Yuan Shao better because he did not try to become king.


I don't think so. Yuan Shao tried to overcome Cao Cao with the only intention to unify the north and taking over the little emperor, exactly as Cao did. Isn't this trying to become a king?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:10 pm

Yuan Shao had his own Emperor-Plans up in the north as well... he carved an imperial seal and tried to make Liu Yu his puppet emperor.

As Cao Cao said in a poem:
The younger Yuan himself an emperor made;
in the north the other carved a seal of jade...
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