Zhang Liao's Reputation

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Devilrai » Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:36 am

Morg wrote:
Blue Moon Samurai wrote:Zhang Liao was incredible at the battle of He Fei, he fought 100,000 troops with only 800 men?

To be fair, most of the 100,000 men had dysentry and could barely stand, let alone defend themselves, IRC.


Dysentry...I would have had no problem with some of them having it but you say "most" of them had it...I guess Sun Quan waanted to take He Fei quickly...so instead of haveing 10,000 good men, he had 100,000 sick men, thats sad.
User avatar
Devilrai
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:09 am

Unread postby Morg » Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:34 pm

Blue Moon Samurai wrote:Dysentry...I would have had no problem with some of them having it but you say "most" of them had it...I guess Sun Quan waanted to take He Fei quickly...so instead of haveing 10,000 good men, he had 100,000 sick men, thats sad.

Not quite. Sun Quan assembled an army of 100,000 fit and health men but the army picked up dysentry on their march to He Fei, so by the time they arrived it had spread pretty badly and was an epidemic. Bear in mind that Zhang Liao attacked the Wu army before it could set up camp so he was, in effect, attacking an army of sick men wh had very little morale.

Don't get me wrong, it was an incredible feat on Zhang Liao's part but his 5,000 kills aren't quite as impressive as you would initially believe.
"If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you." - Cao Cao to Pang De
User avatar
Morg
The Man
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:46 am

Unread postby Marc » Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:19 pm

Morg wrote:Don't get me wrong, it was an incredible feat on Zhang Liao's part but his 5,000 kills aren't quite as impressive as you would initially believe.


Is that 5,000 kills personally, or 5,000 kills before the Wu army surrendered?
Roses are red, violets are blue,
Omae wa mo shindeiru
User avatar
Marc
Robot In Disguise
Robot In Disguise
 
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:09 pm
Location: Wright & Co. Law Offices

Unread postby Morg » Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:10 pm

Zhuge Marc wrote:Is that 5,000 kills personally, or 5,000 kills before the Wu army surrendered?

I don't know, I presume it was 5,000 kills before the Wu army withdrew and regrouped (Wu laid siege to He Fei for a further 10 days and then drew back to the Southlands, they didn't surrender). The number is a SGYY type number I think anyway and is probably exaggerated. Zhang Liao's SGZ bio mentions that he slew scores of men and two generals before he rode at Sun Quan, so he probably legitimately slew about 50 men himself.
"If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you." - Cao Cao to Pang De
User avatar
Morg
The Man
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:46 am

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:55 pm

Morg wrote:Don't get me wrong, it was an incredible feat on Zhang Liao's part but his 5,000 kills aren't quite as impressive as you would initially believe.


I am still very impressed. Even with dysentary you would be able to put up some slight resistance, and with that many men against Zhang Liaos 500 riders. Its not just that the men had dysentary, but as you pointed out, the man were fatigued, had low morale, and were just setting up camp. So its not only amazing that Zhang Liaos raid worked, but also that Zhang Liao had the foresight to know that the troops would be fatigued and weak from the long march and the raid could work with little risk to Wei.

By the way, who were the two generals that he killed that night.
Separation Anxiety
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: The search party never came...

Unread postby Morg » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:28 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Even with dysentary you would be able to put up some slight resistance, and with that many men against Zhang Liaos 500 riders.

Absolutely. While dysentry would have severely weakened the Wu troops, there were still 100,000 weapons that Zhang Liao's men rode into the midst of and that takes a lot of guts.


Its not just that the men had dysentary, but as you pointed out, the man were fatigued, had low morale, and were just setting up camp. So its not only amazing that Zhang Liaos raid worked, but also that Zhang Liao had the foresight to know that the troops would be fatigued and weak from the long march and the raid could work with little risk to Wei.

To be fair, the idea was Cao Cao's. He had sent a letter to Zhang Liao advising that strategy to buy enough time for Cao Cao's army to arrive at He Fei.


By the way, who were the two generals that he killed that night.

Unfortunately their names aren't mentioned in the bio, just that Liao killed 2 enemy generals.
"If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you." - Cao Cao to Pang De
User avatar
Morg
The Man
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:46 am

Unread postby Devilrai » Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:56 am

I just want to get yours thoughts on this question, do you think that Wu would have had a chance if they stayed longer at He Fei? And...did it mention anywhere of what was the size of the army that Cao Cao was bringing to He Fei?
User avatar
Devilrai
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:09 am

Unread postby Morg » Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:27 pm

Blue Moon Samurai wrote:I just want to get yours thoughts on this question, do you think that Wu would have had a chance if they stayed longer at He Fei?

My thoughts? Wu had to pull back after only 10 days because of how bad the epidemic got and when they withdrew, Zhang Liao attacked them and killed more Wu soldiers. If Wu had stuck around longer then I think it would be likely that they wouldn't have made it back to the Southlands. Seiges of cities normally ran for months, so to abandon a siege after only 10 days is a good indicator of how bad a state the army was in.


And...did it mention anywhere of what was the size of the army that Cao Cao was bringing to He Fei?

Cao Cao didn't actually have an army heading for He Fei (as far as I know) but he would have as soon as he got word that the city was under seige. I'll let Zhang Liao explain (quote taken from SGZ bio):

Zhang Liao wrote:"Our lord is afar campaigning, when he returned to aid us it would be too late. This plan is to blunt the enemy's edge and stabilized our own morale so that we may hold out until reinforcements come. Success depends on this one battle what else is there to be unsure of?"


So basically when the Wu army arrived, Zhang Liao was to attack them then pull back into the city. He would then send for reinforcements and sit tight until they arrived. However, I don't think the reinforcements were ever sent for because of the poor state the Wu army was in and their quick withdrawl.
Last edited by Morg on Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you." - Cao Cao to Pang De
User avatar
Morg
The Man
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:46 am

Unread postby Marc » Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:33 pm

Blue Moon Samurai wrote:I just want to get yours thoughts on this question, do you think that Wu would have had a chance if they stayed longer at He Fei?


If you lost a lot of soldiers during the first 10 days, then if you stayed longer with an epidemic thrown in the mix it wouldn't have been a battle, it would have been a slaughter.
Roses are red, violets are blue,
Omae wa mo shindeiru
User avatar
Marc
Robot In Disguise
Robot In Disguise
 
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:09 pm
Location: Wright & Co. Law Offices

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:36 pm

Another thing that Zhang Liao was responsible for was when Sun Quan was attacking and they broke the bridge down to make Sun Quan not be able to retreat. I think it was at Hefei, Im not quite sure though.
Separation Anxiety
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: The search party never came...

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved