Liu Bei and the Longzhong Plan: a fundamental conflict?

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Unread postby GuangRong » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:12 am

Does this then make Liu Bei a tragic hero--one who strives for some ideal but who's doomed from the start? If he had embraced Zhuge Liang's plan wholeheartedly and forget about that righteousness junk, would he have succeeded (despite the lack of popular approval)? Was there any other way other than Zhuge Liang's?


it's not all righteousness junk,

but also Liu Bei's limited ambition and down-to earh nature ..

Liu Bei 's ambition are t modest and he being easily contended is demonstrated by his passive nature
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Unread postby Koichi » Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:23 pm

Indeed I too have wondered about this for a while. From the beginning Liu Bei made it clear his ambition was to restore the Han dynasty. To carry out such an undertaking he needed alot of land and the resources that came with.

Yet Liu Bei was extremely hesitant to take land. Even when Tao Qian died he only accepted the post of temporaty governor and guardian, similar to his position after Liu Biao died. What is true though is Liu Bei had no inhibitions about seizing Nanjun from Cao Ren because it was held by the enemy and a legitimate target for military action.

Now this brings up an interesting question. From the day Liu Bei met Zhuge Liang the advisor explained the Longzhong plan. Zhuge Liang told Liu Bei it required him to seize the territory of Liu Biao and Liu Zhang. Why did Liu Bei go along with it? Why didn't he say "Oh, I'm probably not your man. I cannot seize the land of my allies."?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:32 am

GuangRong wrote:Liu Bei 's ambition are t modest and he being easily contended is demonstrated by his passive nature

But if he wants to revive the Han blah blah, there's no room for him to be contended and passive, is there? He either restores Han or he stays home and farm. He can't be like Liu Biao or Liu Zhang, sitting in peace in some land--since then he'd lose all support right away. For Liu Bei, it's all or nothing.

Koichi wrote:Yet Liu Bei was extremely hesitant to take land. Even when Tao Qian died he only accepted the post of temporaty governor and guardian, similar to his position after Liu Biao died.

He was afraid to end up like Yuan Shu. He tried to play his cards carefully--provoking Cao Cao's anger, or Yuan Shao and Shu's envy (for the land) too early would have been fatal. I think he did the right thing for not accepting Xuzhou right off the bat. However, he screwed up in declaring war the second time round when he had Xuzhou, since he wasn't strong enough to oppose Cao yet.

Now this brings up an interesting question. From the day Liu Bei met Zhuge Liang the advisor explained the Longzhong plan. Zhuge Liang told Liu Bei it required him to seize the territory of Liu Biao and Liu Zhang. Why did Liu Bei go along with it? Why didn't he say "Oh, I'm probably not your man. I cannot seize the land of my allies."?

Heh, maybe he's desperate to have someone with brains on his side? :P Perhaps he had been debating the very same question for a while, and hoped that once he got Zhuge, they could iron out the details.
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Unread postby GuangRong » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:21 am

Lady Wu wrote:But if he wants to revive the Han blah blah, there's no room for him to be contended and passive, is there? He either restores Han or he stays home and farm. He can't be like Liu Biao or Liu Zhang, sitting in peace in some land--since then he'd lose all support right away. For Liu Bei, it's all or nothing.

Liu Bei has a bit of liu shan in him ..

I 'm not saying he dun have ambition and aspiration to restored Han, its just that it's not as strong as his "liu shan" tendancy some times..

the honeymoon in Wu, already exposed Liu Bei for what he is..

Liu Bei was brought up as peasant, and he thinks like one for the most part.
of course , having tasted power , Liu bei changed over time.. ,
as he became accustom to a position of power.
but his background had already shaped his out look
hmmm how to put it ?
eg.
take the The Throne of Shu,

Liu Bei probably feel it's his good fortune to sit on the throne and and it was all due to the grace of the gods .
then he'll be quite reluctant to do do any bad or unvirturous things for fear of angering the gods, thus loosing his good fortune..

Liu shan probaly thinks he's entitled to everthing , heh it's his birth Right
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:27 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Does this then make Liu Bei a tragic hero--one who strives for some ideal but who's doomed from the start? If he had embraced Zhuge Liang's plan wholeheartedly and forget about that righteousness junk, would he have succeeded (despite the lack of popular approval)? Was there any other way other than Zhuge Liang's?

IMO, Liu Bei planned carefully for every steps he took. For Jing Zhou example, he couldn't bring himself to take this land after Liu Biao's death maybe because he knew it is quite risky to face Cao Cao alone. During that time, Jing Zhou was in chaos after the death of Liu Biao, the situation became uncertain, if Liu Bei really took over Jing Zhou, he maybe didn't have the ability to control or calm the situation down. Then, in Liu Biao's camp, there was someone who opposed Liu Bei such like Cai Mao, he would be the first one to step forward fighting against Liu Bei's if Liu Bei trying to get Jing Zhou. We must remember that Cai family was very famous and influential in Jing Zhou, there was no chance for Liu Bei to control Jing Zhou if this kind of person around. Despite of that, the loyalty of armies and generals, would they stand at Liu Bei's side when Liu Zong was around?

Liu Bei needed the 'righteousness junk', it was the 'righteousness junk' which bring Liu Bei 'travelled' so far until build up the whole Shu-Han kingdom. You can see the power of this 'righteousness junk', when Liu Bei about to leave the city of Xiang Yang (right? don't have time to check :? ), the people chose to follow him instead of Liu Zong. Tao Qian appointed him to guard Xu Zhou, he could 'lure' Zhang Song to get Yi Zhou and the most of all, got the help of Zhuge Liang. :twisted:
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Unread postby Koichi » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:20 pm

Well, it's not true that Liu Bei lacked ambition or he was indecisive. He knew since chapter 1 his ambition was to restore the country to a level of stability under the Han dynasty. The only thing that changed was the villain that threatened the authority of the Hans. First it was the Yellow Turbans, then Dong Zhuo, then Cao Cao. What Liu Bei did lack was a clear-cut plan to achieve his ambition. That's where Zhuge Liang comes in. Hence Liu Bei refers to himself as a fish who found his water.

Yeah you guys are right, it's not true that Liu Bei is unwilling to seize land, he's unwilling to seize land from his allies. He had no inhibitions about taking Xuzhou by force after he escaped from Cao Cao. It was held at the time by Che Zhou, an officer of Cao Cao who plotted his murder. Being held by the enemy, it was a legitimate target.

PS Mengdez your avatar looks awful! :cry: For the love of God please get that hot girl back on!
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Re: Liu Bei and the Longzhong Plan: a fundamental conflict?

Unread postby HLmilk » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:48 am

Longzhong plan is not Fundamental conflict, it will work if things have work up fine. Long zhong plan if i am not wrong consists of an attack from HanZhong->AnDing->ChangAn, JiangLing(jing)->xiangYang->Xuchang, JiangYe->(something)Chun->XuChang. Firstly, I believe that this three attacks are vital to attack Wei from all three directions. However, when Guan attack XiangYang, he is not well assisted from JianYe nor Hanzhong. Worst of all he was Backstabbed by Sun Quan. Yes, when i play Rotk XI i find it hard for sunquan to defend after bringing down the (something)Chun because caocao has a very hard army to counterattack. It is easy for one to guess tht one day Wu would attack Shu(jing province) because Sunquan was also ambitious and needed more land. Then LiuBei gave Sun Quan 3 Provinces(by whatever means) and maybe that had drop their guards down, however he became too greedy =.= .

Secondly, even Wu got Jing Province they were also trying to make use of Shu to make the first attack and so they wil get the upper hand (LuXun's plan) thinking that most of wei soldiers were at te frontline fighting Shu , but it failed as well in the 6th attempt by zhugeliang on Wei. This shows that the plan cant work if it is not sitmutaneous and if the other side is not selfish or greedy. Wei is too big and it is like the soviet union, no matter how many soldiers she lost, she can still replace them.

Lastly, time is a factor. LongZhong plan requires one to wait and wait for a good opportunity to strike. However, as times pass, more capables generals die. It is easiler to raise an army than a good general. It may not be true at the Wei side as Wei still had many talents. That is also a setback.
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Re: Liu Bei and the Longzhong Plan: a fundamental conflict?

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:14 pm

I think the main issue with Longzhong was that Zhuge Liang assumed that Wu would remain docile and accept Shu's control of Jing, reasoning that they would never turn against Shu while their common enemy retained the upper hand. However, Zhuge sorely underestimated Wu's military and the diplomatic skills of Sun Quan, who managed to strike a deal with Wei without shifting the balance of power in any direction but his own.
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Re: Liu Bei and the Longzhong Plan: a fundamental conflict?

Unread postby HLmilk » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:01 am

Sun quan knew that caocao wanted to unify china while liu bei wanted to unify China under han. It is apparent that shu and wei will not join force againt wu, so sun quan would do anything to reap any profits from the conflict between this 2 nations. I think that Zhugeliang knew that one day wu would attack shu. Zhugeliang may have made the wrong move by asking Guanyu to attack XiangYang which was a great fortified city and was well defended in terms of amount of soldier and supplies. Even if Guanyu managed to capture Xiangyang it would took months and most of his troops might have perished in the siege. Not to mention any possibility of counterattacking by wei.
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Re: Liu Bei and the Longzhong Plan: a fundamental conflict?

Unread postby jiang cheng » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:09 am

The longzhong plan was a good one and it could have succeeded if Liu Bei is more ruthless. Yes you see it right ruthless.

He is not a perfect empire founder like his forefather liu bang but he is a good emperor to be once the empire is secured.

I think only cao cao might succeed in executing the plan if it is presented to him.

Liu bei should accept Jing in the first chance when liu biao presented it to him. The rich resources and a powerful navy would have to stall cao cao. Sun quan will not have the right to the Jing if he had accepted it.

With jing secured, they should turn against liu zhang soon instead of waiting. I felt that if that is to happen, they should set capital in Jing Province instead of Sichuan as it would be easier to access to talent and resources. Chengdu should still be develop through which they can fall back on in the event things turned against them
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