Lady Sun (Sun An, Sun Ren, Sun Shang Xiang, Sun Li)

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Lady Sun (Sun An, Sun Ren, Sun Shang Xiang, Sun Li)

Unread postby James » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:53 am

Discussing the many names of Lady Sun

I don’t know how many times I’ve been asked the real personal name of Lady Sun (Sun Quan’s sister) since Kongming’s Archives started, but I do know finding the answer at one point seemed as hopeless as finding Dian Wei’s style name (which I remember a lot of people listing as simply nonexistent). That’s why I was quite surprised to read a single little blurb of text in my copy of Moss Roberts Romance of the Three Kingdoms (Library Binding). It follows:

Romance of the Three Kingdoms, translated by Moss Roberts wrote:(48) See CZL, p. 61. For a discussion of the novel’s tendency to exaggerate the Riverlands’ importance at the expense of the Southland, see Zhang Huan, “Cong yongren deskhi lun Sun Wu jituan,” in YJJ, pp. 211-27. See also Liu Zhijian, “Du Dan dao hui zhaji,” in his Xinlun, pp. 134-53. The Yuan text, but not the Ming text, has Sun Quan conceding that Liu Xuande deserves some of Jingzhou territory to acknowledge his help in saving the Southland from Cao Cao. Lone Swordsman also raises the legitimacy question when Lord Guan denies the Southland claim to Jingzhou on the grounds that Liu Xuande’s place in the imperial line – after Gao Zu, Guang Wu, and Xiandi – entitles him to the Han throne and all the land in the empire. Sun An, the sister of Sun Quan and wife of Liu Xuande, makes the same point in A Battle of Wits Across the River (Gejiang douzhi): “As a member of the imperial house, Xuande is needed to bring Wu and Wei into a world [governed by] the house of Liu.”

Moss Roberts references Lady Sun here by the name Sun An, one I’ve not yet seen before (most of us have noticed the incorrect Sun Ren or Sun Li). Given how much studying Moss Roberts has actually done on the subject, I’m quite inclined to believe he knows where he’s coming from on this (unless I missed something of course). I’m more interested in finding out if, given this information, anyone can dig up more, such as where the reference(s) came/comes from. And finally, as icing on the cake though I don’t have my hopes up, the tone of her personal name. If anything, I thought this would be fun information to share with everyone.
Last edited by James on Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:32 am

Sun An name came from the Chinese orchestra of Yuan dynasty. During Yuan dynasty, Chinese orchestra reached it's high peak until the historian give it a name call Yuan Qu (元曲). Many Sanguo stories had been 'transformed' into Yuan Qu.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:42 am

What about Sun Shangxiang then? Though SGYY clearly had it as Sun Ren, and SGZ is silent on the matter, SSX shows up in various places: the DW games and the lianhuantu version of SGYY at least.

Regarding "Sun An": MNB nailed it. Note that Roberts was saying that "Sun An" was Lady Sun in the Yuan opera " A Battle of Wits Across the River (Gejiang douzhi)". [/i]
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:00 am

Lady Wu wrote:What about Sun Shangxiang then? Though SGYY clearly had it as Sun Ren, and SGZ is silent on the matter, SSX shows up in various places: the DW games and the lianhuantu version of SGYY at least.

Regarding "Sun An": MNB nailed it. Note that Roberts was saying that "Sun An" was Lady Sun in the Yuan opera " A Battle of Wits Across the River (Gejiang douzhi)". [/i]

Sun Shiangxiang name came from modern Chinese opera ( :oops: ). The people of Chinese opera (how to call them? :? ) thought that the name Sun An was too normal and man-like. So, they changed it to Sun Shangxiang and it had been used until today. :wink:
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:16 am

So what's wrong with Sun Ren, the name Luo Guanzhong used? Ren (compassion) is a perfectly good girl's name... just think of the phrase "furen zhi ren" ("having the heart of a woman") :lol: . Shangxiang is so girly... doesn't fit in with a family with girls called Sun Big Tiger and Sun Small Tiger... :?

So what period opera gave rise to Shangxiang? When you say modern, do you mean Qing dynasty, or post-1949, or what?
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Unread postby James » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:31 am

Darn it. Thanks for the info though! Learn something new every day.
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Re: Sun An (Lady Sun)

Unread postby Morg » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:44 am

James wrote:as hopeless as finding Dian Wei’s style name (which I remember a lot of people listing as simply nonexistent).

Pardon my dragging this away from the topic at hand, but where does Dian Wei's style name 'Ziman' come from? Is that just a SGYY thing that isn't mentioned in SGZ?
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:41 pm

Lady Wu wrote:So what's wrong with Sun Ren, the name Luo Guanzhong used? Ren (compassion) is a perfectly good girl's name... just think of the phrase "furen zhi ren" ("having the heart of a woman") :lol: . Shangxiang is so girly... doesn't fit in with a family with girls called Sun Big Tiger and Sun Small Tiger... :?

So what period opera gave rise to Shangxiang? When you say modern, do you mean Qing dynasty, or post-1949, or what?


About Sun Ren, i read a book which gave a reason that LGZ borrowed Sun Ren name from Sun Jian another son, Sun Lang. According to Sun Jian bio, his youngest son name Sun Lang, this Sun Lang had another name called Sun Ren.

For the exact date, i must say sorry because i don't know, most probably during Qing dynasty. :wink:
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Re: Sun An (Lady Sun)

Unread postby James » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:49 pm

I would like to request information on the background, if available, on Sun Li, Sun Ren, and Sun Shang Xiang from those of you that know much more about this than me? I’m pretty sure the former is just a figment of Koei’s imagination and I already saw a little on the other two, but I just realized I don’t know much about either for certain. :)

Morg wrote:Pardon my dragging this away from the topic at hand, but where does Dian Wei's style name 'Ziman' come from? Is that just a SGYY thing that isn't mentioned in SGZ?

I was under the impression it was listed in a historical reference and not just SGYY. In fact, I wasn’t sure I even saw it in SGYY, but I could be mistaken on that. Please take feedback to a thread (new if necessary) on styles (zi) or to the Q&A thread, I'm curious to hear more.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:36 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:About Sun Ren, i read a book which gave a reason that LGZ borrowed Sun Ren name from Sun Jian another son, Sun Lang. According to Sun Jian bio, his youngest son name Sun Lang, this Sun Lang had another name called Sun Ren.

I guess since Sun Lang had two names and his sister didn't even have one, he could spare the "Ren" for his sis. How nice :D

Where did Sun Li come from? I don't recall having seen that one.
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