The "What If" Thread

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Poe » Mon May 03, 2004 1:56 am

Cao Cao probably would have been forced to retreat, and it may be unlikely to expect him to defeat Yuan Shao again. Despite his superiority in officers (especially after Yan Liang and Wen Chou were killed), his forces still were greatly outnumbered. If Yuan Shao had shown any initiative, it could get ugly for Cao Cao.

Consider this. Cao Cao, running low on rations, is forced into choosing between two difficult options: a powerful but most likely disastrous attack on Yuan Shao's men, or a retreat which could leave his men strung out on the roads, easy prey for Yuan's superior numbers. If he attempts the attack, he might push Yuan back, or freeze him into inaction long enough to pull back, but, if speedily repulsed, such an attack could destroy his army completely. If he tries to retreat, Yuan could pounce on his retreating army, overwhelming his rear guard with superior numbers and cutting him to pieces.

Most likely he would choose to retreat, considering the possibility that Yuan might be stopped by the rear guard, or let him retreat, being content to heal his wounds.

Either way, Cao Cao would probably be defeated sooner or later.
Poe
Apprentice
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 2:09 am

Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon May 03, 2004 2:20 am

Master Zhuge Liang wrote:I think they could have, those Elephants though they're slow they are very strong and effective. With the right stratergy and attack they could have but they might of been over powered by Cao Cao's large army and The Nanman have a feild advantage, they know the terrain like the back of their hand, Wei don't.


Not as big an advantage as you think,the tribes have a long history of getting beat down whenever they get out of line.So routes into the south would hardly be unknown.I believe the legendary Ma Yuan was of the pacifiers of this region.
As I see it,if the Han Chinese could beat the bloody Xiong Nu to the brink of annihilation they won't be having any trouble with any Mangs.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon May 03, 2004 4:39 am

well elephants dont bring gib advantages. poke a couple of them with pikemen and they run in the opposite direction, meaning they'll trample their own men. the nanmen weren't a big threat and Cao Cao would've probably beaten back the tribes with ease.
Currently playing: Dragon Quest VIII
User avatar
Six_and_Up
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:35 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Unread postby Stedfel » Tue May 11, 2004 12:50 pm

Even if Xun Yu had not defected, Cao Cao still would have one. Though Cao Cao would have to retreat, I doubt that Yuan Shao would have persued him. Continuing on the indecisive part, I doubt that Yuan Shao would have attaacked Cao Cao's territory for a while, trying to figure out Where Cao's main army was. Anyway, Cao Cao couls have stilll outlived Yuan Shao and defeat his two fighting sons.
Stedfel
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:33 am

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue May 11, 2004 5:06 pm

He would most likely be forced to retreat, Yuan Shao would pursue and destroy Cao Cao's rear guard with his well fed and rested troops. A retreat from Guan Du would have cost Cao Cao the capital. He would have to retreat toward Chang An or east toward Xu. Either way he is kinda screwed since Yuan Shao would now control the emperor and brand Cao Cao a traitor after that other warlords will rise up to finish Cao Cao off.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2667
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Liu Pi » Mon May 24, 2004 9:06 pm

It would be hilarious if he couldn't and the Nanman accidentally took over all of China. I wish that would have happened :lol:
"You cannot dream yourself into a character; you must hammer and forge yourself one." - James A. Froude
Liu Pi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1130
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Location: UK

Unread postby Mei Zhen » Tue May 25, 2004 2:54 am

Let's face it, the only thing about the Mang that posed a realistic threat to Shu was their large numbers. Not magic, nor Zhu Rong, nor smelly water, nor elephants, nor Meng Huo's supposed heft really had Zhuge shivering in his breeches. With the combined manpower of a united China Wei would not have had any trouble subjugating the south. To ask this question is also to overlook the persuasive and influential abilities that Wei had at its disposal: after all, if Meng Huo was pressured into war by some militants in his own camp, it would probably be easy enough to pressure him out of one or force him into submission.
"In a modern culture
My friend you must be careful
They've a million ways to kill you

In this dangerous world
There’s an art to growing old
Taking chances
Magic happens"
- Garbage, Breaking Up the Girl
User avatar
Mei Zhen
Lost in Quotation
 
Posts: 1361
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:24 pm
Location: NYC/CT

If Lu Bu had been a filial son...

Unread postby robbyjo » Sun May 30, 2004 8:07 pm

Ok... I tried to search for this topic but to no avail. If mods think otherwise, please PM me and I'll delete this promptly.

Alright...

If Li Su failed to persuade Lu Bu and Lu Bu had been a filial son to Ding Yun... how would the history change? Dong Zhuo would still attack Ding Yun, but would Ding Yun survive? Li Su could have been devising a more evil plot.

If Ding Yun had survived, would he stand the invasion of Yuan Shao later on? If he hadn't survived, who would Lu Bu serve? Would it be Gongsun Zan? Or perhaps Liu Bei or Cao Cao? Or make a kingdom for himself?

This is a big speculation and perhaps an open ended discussion. Just tell us what you think...

-- Rob

Edit: Thanks to Kong Wen's correction. It's now corrected....
Last edited by robbyjo on Sun May 30, 2004 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:mrgreen:
User avatar
robbyjo
Überducky of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2766
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Heaven

Re: If Lu Bu had been a filial son...

Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun May 30, 2004 9:43 pm

robbyjo wrote:Ok... I tried to search for this topic but to no avail. If mods think otherwise, please PM me and I'll delete this promptly.

Alright...

If Li Ru failed to persuade Lu Bu and Lu Bu had been a filial son to Ding Yun... how would the history change? Dong Zhuo would still attack Ding Yun, but would Ding Yun survive? Li Ru could have been devising a more evil plot.

It was actually Li Su who persuaded Lü Bu to join Dong Zhuo, not Li Ru.

In addition, Ding Yuan was only Lü Bu's adopted father, and it seems like Fengxian was only serving him out of convenience rather than out of any kind of devotion or loyalty (which makes me wonder why they went through the formalities of calling each other "father" and "son" in the first place).

But all that aside, if Fengxian stayed loyal to Dong Zhuo, I think he would have been able to hold off all duelers (since Dong Zhuo only had folks like Hua Xiong, Li Su, Fan Chou et al); however, Ding Yuan certainly had far fewer troops than Dong Zhuo commanded in the capital. The only way Ding Yuan could come out of it alive is if Cao Cao and the other lords managed to muster up their armies in time to protect him.
"We spread the time as we can, but in the end the world takes it all back."
— Roland Deschain, Wolves of the Calla
User avatar
Kong Wen
The Bronze Age of SoSZ
The Bronze Age of SoSZ
 
Posts: 11905
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:38 pm
Location: Canada

Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:28 am

Here are some what-if scenarios that were posted in another thread.

Wu Chun wrote:Here are some What if's to ponder about

He Jin succeded in assinating the eunichs after supressing the yellow turbans

Lu Bu did not kill his master Ding Yuan

Gongsun Zan defeated Yuan Shao and hired his advisors

Liu Bei Lost his son Liu Chan (either with his wife to Sun Quan) Or if Zhao Yun did not find him

Also What if Sima Yi was Executed by Cao Shang
"We spread the time as we can, but in the end the world takes it all back."
— Roland Deschain, Wolves of the Calla
User avatar
Kong Wen
The Bronze Age of SoSZ
The Bronze Age of SoSZ
 
Posts: 11905
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:38 pm
Location: Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron