The "What If" Thread

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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:33 pm

I was more thinking the elite warriors like Lu Bu, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei like level so maybe elite would have been better wording then great
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:07 am

Dong Zhou wrote:There seems to be some confusion here between difference as a warrior (though Sun Jian showed strength, nobody called Sun Jian a great warrior) and a general (where Sun Jian was arguably one of the top three alongside Huangfu Song and Dong Zhuo in the early days). Lu Bu did lose battles to Sun Jian, that reflects the circumstances and the two respective abilities as generals, it says nothing about them as a warriors. You need to separate being a general and being a warrior


ok then, what makes a person be called a warrior? since i tend to mix both general and warrior, please tell me both criteria?


The army may have been poor quality due to issues going on for years before Sun Hao. Wu was no longer a strong central state, resources and troops were in the hands of powerful families which meant the ruler had to try to persuade what he could out of them. That would have weakened their ability to defend but some Wu armies held out, problem is that left several other Jin armies to run rampant

Lu Jing was a noted scholar, he and elder brother Lu Yan were killed during the Jing invasion, the younger sons Ji and Ying rose up through Jin ranks, highly prominent scholars but as Ji struggled in battle during the chaos of Jin, his arrest of a subordinate saw the Lu family slandered and executed.


I see.

I assume you mean why not wait for Guan Yu to win then attack to take Wei's former lands as well? There is no guarantee Guan Yu would win as Wei would be desperate to hold, then Guan Yu's army will retreat into Jing and opportunity is gone while Wei is not happy at failure to help. If Guan Yu takes Fan, then his officers in Jing will likely be less inclined to surrender, Guan Yu can move his forces quickly back to Jing and Wei will be annoyed at both failure to move plus any taking of their former lands, particularly a key point like Fan.

Sun Quan had given orders to invade before that raid so that wasn't really a factor. I doubt a raid on supplies is going to cause that much damage to Wu prestige and unity. Sun Quan had other means of making clear that was unacceptable other then a full blown invasion of Jing


I disagree with less inclined to surrender thing, i doubt Mi Fang and Shi Ren would've sit around await to be punished if Guan Yu won at Fancheng, they would most likely to rebel or allied themself to Lu Meng, and that would impacted bad on Yu. Since the newly captured city contain more or less supplies than his former city and in need of recover from war, do you think Yu Jin and his 30.000 men wouldve loyal to him if that were to happen? They might rebel and tries to take back Wei's former land from Yu.
Guan Yu wouldve no choice but to press forward or die. Well, die because Lu Meng and his men wouldve wanted his head more than his surrender so its not really a choice.
Press forward deep into Wei's territory or toward Shangyong, either way, Yu wouldve met a very bad end. Toward Shangyong wouldve spooked Meng Da and forced him to rebel, deep into Wei's land would make him as bad as he is on Maicheng, but he had a chance of survival since Cao Cao doesnt want to kill him.


Well there was 19 or so years and two very very different circumstances between the two incidents which is probably a far bigger reason then hypocrisy. Not sure what you mean by little pride with Cao Cao

I'll be interested to hear why you think that Guan Yu was not loyal. I'll be honest I can't see the justification for the "doubting Guan Yu's loyalty" for various reasons

1) He was known to be close to Liu Bei. They never actually swore oaths as brothers but were seen as so close as to be brothers, the relationship was so well know that it was to the point that Wei and Wu put in their calculations on state affairs involving them, there is no indicating that bond ever fractured or Guan Yu ever regretted his service. Have I missed something?

2) Guan Yu's personality and reputation in this own time was as, as well as skills and arrogance, for loyalty and personal honour. Not for frustrated ambition or regret. Usually when people of the time/histories have had questionable views of their fellow, it is usually for trope or political reasons but I'm not seeing how that can be with Guan Yu. So why were his fellows wrong?

3) Guan Yu had chance to leave. Nobody would have attacked him for staying with Cao Cao, other friends of Liu Bei had ended up with Cao Cao and nobody attacks them for it. Guan Yu was clearly valued by Cao Cao, he had got to know a few people, he was offered wealth and rank, Guan Yu could have had a good career there. He chose to leave to return to the uncertain life under Liu Bei and sacrificed the gains he could have had for a very risky project.

Had Guan Yu wanted to later join Cao Cao or Sun Quan (though that would have been more controversial), he would have been welcomed with rank, wealth and almost anything he wanted as both kingdoms rated him and wanted his services. He didn't.


i wasn't mean his bond or loyalty to Liu Bei, but merely judging from what i read on the way how he treat different person makes me think his loyalty are pretty much questionable had he weren't that close to Liu Bei.
As a note, its not only Guan Yu who chose to leave Cao for uncertain life under Liu Bei, but also Mi brothers, which includes Mi Fang, yet Yu treated him with contempt even before he accidentally sets equipment ablaze. He also treated the people of Wu the same as he treat Mi Fang. The only people who could get his good side is Liu Bei and his gang, as well as Cao Cao himself. Which back to my original statement, had he never form a close bond to Liu Bei, he mightve left him for Cao.

Dong Zhou wrote:I was more thinking the elite warriors like Lu Bu, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei like level so maybe elite would have been better wording then great


now i agree with you. They just simply not the great, but one level below great. I'm only reasoning he wasn't with PyroMystic since he mention Lu Bu was "the greatest warrior of Three Kingdoms".
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:35 pm

ok then, what makes a person be called a warrior? since i tend to mix both general and warrior, please tell me both criteria?


Warrior: Fear of strength/arms, winning duels, officer kills, being described as brave/strong, great warriors, use as vanguard/line breakers. Includes archery feat. Doesn't involve tactics or leadership but about ability to handle oneself in a fight/melee

General: Leading men, using/carrying out tactics, winning battles. Some generals will also be capable warriors, others relying on leadership and intelligence to make up for their limited ability if forced to fight hand to hand.

I disagree with less inclined to surrender thing, i doubt Mi Fang and Shi Ren would've sit around await to be punished if Guan Yu won at Fancheng, they would most likely to rebel or allied themself to Lu Meng, and that would impacted bad on Yu. Since the newly captured city contain more or less supplies than his former city and in need of recover from war, do you think Yu Jin and his 30.000 men wouldve loyal to him if that were to happen? They might rebel and tries to take back Wei's former land from Yu.
Guan Yu wouldve no choice but to press forward or die. Well, die because Lu Meng and his men wouldve wanted his head more than his surrender so its not really a choice.
Press forward deep into Wei's territory or toward Shangyong, either way, Yu wouldve met a very bad end. Toward Shangyong wouldve spooked Meng Da and forced him to rebel, deep into Wei's land would make him as bad as he is on Maicheng, but he had a chance of survival since Cao Cao doesnt want to kill him.


Winning means less likely to be punished. Guan Yu being in better mood, that it isn't considered a good signal to respond to victory with punishments rather then rewards. The two officers would also have sense of being on the winning side and the reluctant Mi Fang would also have more confidence that he can hold it till help arrives since Guan Yu's army isn't engaged in

I doubt the surrendered were kept in one place with weapons and equipemtn, just in case of such revolts. Given Yu Jin couldn't raise forces while they were captured while Wei forces were engaged in fight and thus Guan Yu's forces were distracted, not sure he could have done so afterwards.

Guan Yu would have had a few options (like reinforcing Mi Fang) and going to Shangyong would unlikely have forced Meng Da to rebel. Not even Guan Yu's death led Meng Da to rebel, only Liu Feng's inept response led to that. He could just hold his new lands if need be and wait for reinforcements

i wasn't mean his bond or loyalty to Liu Bei, but merely judging from what i read on the way how he treat different person makes me think his loyalty are pretty much questionable had he weren't that close to Liu Bei.
As a note, its not only Guan Yu who chose to leave Cao for uncertain life under Liu Bei, but also Mi brothers, which includes Mi Fang, yet Yu treated him with contempt even before he accidentally sets equipment ablaze. He also treated the people of Wu the same as he treat Mi Fang. The only people who could get his good side is Liu Bei and his gang, as well as Cao Cao himself. Which back to my original statement, had he never form a close bond to Liu Bei, he mightve left him for Cao.


If Liu Bei hadn't become close friends with Guan Yu then Guan Yu's life would have probably been very different in many many ways but those who knew Guan Yu felt he was a loyal honourable man.

We don't know why Guan Yu felt contemptuous towards Mi Fang. Guan Yu's attitude towards Wu was probably shaped by the whole distrust that came after Wu had already attacked him once. There isn't a mention that Guan Yu failed to get on wit people

now i agree with you. They just simply not the great, but one level below great. I'm only reasoning he wasn't with PyroMystic since he mention Lu Bu was "the greatest warrior of Three Kingdoms".


I thought elite was above great? Ok for clarity's sake, the records indicate Lu Bu as one of the greatest warriors of his era. Who was the best out of that elite/great/awesome is probably impossible to know but with the records we have, Lu Bu has a strong claim.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:35 pm

Lu Bu may have been the greatest warrior. He was described as having unmatched arm strength. Not merely strong but unmatched. This is higher praise than anyone else when it comes to individual prowess. Lu Bu is at least amongst the best but I would say he probably was the best as a fighter. There were some other greats too though we will all differ somewhat in our view: Guan Yu, Zhao Yun, Zhang Liao, Gan Ning come to mind for me.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:49 pm

Can't forget Sun Ce and Taishi Ci!
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:03 pm

Definitely I knew I missed some key ones. I can’t believe I missed Sun Ce, Taishi Ci I’m not so familiar with but I’ll take your word on him. Sun Ce was a great warrior and wonderful general, have a lot of respect for him.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:15 pm

Wen Qin and Wen Chu as well if we're taking... suspect accounts into, well, account. Luo Xian and Liu Yin as well deserve their recognition as great warriors given their feats in Shu.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:23 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Warrior: Fear of strength/arms, winning duels, officer kills, being described as brave/strong, great warriors, use as vanguard/line breakers. Includes archery feat. Doesn't involve tactics or leadership but about ability to handle oneself in a fight/melee

General: Leading men, using/carrying out tactics, winning battles. Some generals will also be capable warriors, others relying on leadership and intelligence to make up for their limited ability if forced to fight hand to hand.


-Being described as brave/strong, fear of strength/arms, great warriors is true, he is indeed described as such, but its not his skill though, its merely his charisma/aura to make people respect him as such.

-Winning duels? err, i never seen Lu Bu won any duel against people with strength on his par before, do you? So far i read it was Guo Si who was wounded in a duel, but Guo Si was able to hold out on his own even his men would rush up to his help, so i kinda doubted it.

-Officer Kills? errr, who did he kill? bunch of bandits and 2 foster father, other than that, none.

- Line breakers, well, it was described that he led Cheng Lian and Wei Yue with dozen of horseman to raid multiple times against bandits and forced them to retreat, so it does indeed he has such skill, only when he's used right. not to mention it was his feat of being a good general as well.

- Archery feat... i thought Huang Zhong and many other people such as Taishi Chi, Qiang, Wuhuan, or Xiongnu tribes were far better than him. I mean, they can shoot while riding horse, thats gotta count something. Lu Bu only shoot a stationery target.

Winning means less likely to be punished. Guan Yu being in better mood, that it isn't considered a good signal to respond to victory with punishments rather then rewards. The two officers would also have sense of being on the winning side and the reluctant Mi Fang would also have more confidence that he can hold it till help arrives since Guan Yu's army isn't engaged in


Guan Yu was known for his strictness, everyone know about it. heck, even people of Yi Province like Meng Da know about it. Winning or not doesn't make him to be less likely to punish Mi Fang for his mistake, but Mi Fang's choice to not defect on Wu will omit him from punishment, but that might cost his life, so his choice only limited to live or to die.
It's really doubtful if Mi Fang could hold up against Wu's elite men, and one that lead by their cic (Lu Meng) it is.

I doubt the surrendered were kept in one place with weapons and equipemtn, just in case of such revolts. Given Yu Jin couldn't raise forces while they were captured while Wei forces were engaged in fight and thus Guan Yu's forces were distracted, not sure he could have done so afterwards.


err, even with no equipment surrendered troop were far greater number than his men, they wouldve overpower them and seize their equipment instead. You forgetting the circumstance that Guan Yu divided his forces to besiege 2 cities here.

Guan Yu would have had a few options (like reinforcing Mi Fang) and going to Shangyong would unlikely have forced Meng Da to rebel. Not even Guan Yu's death led Meng Da to rebel, only Liu Feng's inept response led to that. He could just hold his new lands if need be and wait for reinforcements


Okay here it is, lets imagine a moment here, you being Meng Da, who refused to send out reinforcement to someone (Guan Yu), then the next day, the said person show up on your doorstep, with tens of thousand armed men behind him. What would you do?


I thought elite was above great? Ok for clarity's sake, the records indicate Lu Bu as one of the greatest warriors of his era. Who was the best out of that elite/great/awesome is probably impossible to know but with the records we have, Lu Bu has a strong claim.


Idk mate, if Lu Bu can pull off a feat like Xiang Yu during Liu Bang's day, i may be able to acknowledge him being "the greatest warrior" of three kingdom era. Maybe it's just my personal preference.
Many of Lu Bu's feat makes me think he wasn't great/elite warrior, but great/elite general. It's only his charisma/aura to make people respect him as great warrior, but charisma is just a presence, not actual skill. Without feat like Xiang Yu, that charisma were in vain.

---

Edit:
One of the reason why i thought Guan Yu was a hypocrite is because i read it somewhere, when Xu Huang show up with his men, he greeted them as if they were friends. While Xu Huang's reaction were right, since he was on duty and not playing friends. Guan Yu's reaction after witnessing Xu Huang reaction is pretty laughable. I mean, why get angry? Xu Huang merely doing his duty to his lord.

Here it is, he's treated his men from Liu Bei side in contempt, but treated his enemies as they were his friends. It's like conveying a message that he was subconsciously wanted to serve Cao Cao instead of Liu Bei, but he unable to since he was bound by close friendship to Liu Bei and his own word of oath to loyally serve him.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby PyroMystic » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:39 am

Dong Zhou wrote:There isn't definitive proof on motives usually unfortunately and I don't believe we even have Liu Bei's public proclamation (though in itself, wouldn't be definite proof). Revenge must have been on Liu Bei's mind but histories could prone to narrative if a big final defeat with a convenient death soon after. The advice not taken becomes right, rejects peace (even thoguh Wu's attempts at peace were laughable), warlord wanders off right path due to attitude (in this case revenge, in Yuan Shao's case arrogance) and thus brings defeat and death upon himself.

We do have a Liu Ye analysis of why Liu Bei had to fight included more then revenge “Though Shǔ is small and weak, yet [Liú] Bèi’s desire is to use military authority to make himself powerful, and he will certainly use his army to make a show that he has abundance. Moreover Guān Yǔ and [Liú] Bèi, though their relationship was ruler and servant, their closeness was like father and son. With [Guān] Yǔ did if he cannot raise his army to take revenge on the enemy, it will not be enough to fulfill [the promise to stay together from] beginning to end.”

Look at Liu Bei's history as a pragmatic, clever warlord and all the reasons of state he had for invading Wu, I don't think he simply had one thought on his mind.

If the only motive you can think of for Guan Yu's actions (in one possible version of his fate) is negative, maybe have another think as to why he acted like that?
Well, I didn't deny that Liu Bei probably have some reason for attacking Wu. But my point is that his chief reason for attacking Wu is revenge, and I didn't seem (as you state yourself) to find any source that states otherwise. Also, IF it is true that Liu Bei's attack is a well-planned one and wasn't driven by revenge, then why was Zhao Yun against this? And why didn't Zhuge Liang participate in this endeavor? Why did this campaign end up in disastrous defeat? It makes more sense that Liu Bei was angry and waited for the right time for revenge. When the time came, he marched to Wu with as many people as could gather, and attacked, only for it to end in destruction. Shu was weakened after that.

As for Guan Yu, well, I tried to, but failed. I mean, I cannot come up with a possible positive motive on why Guan Yu decided to attack Fan.

Li_Shengsun wrote:Not so arrogant enough in front of Cao Cao though, he's just being hypocrite. He selling his 'little' pride to Cao, but belittle those (Sun Quan) who actually managed to beat him (Cao Cao). I doubted Yu really that loyal to Liu Bei had he never made an oath with him.
I agree with you. Guan Yu knew very well that Cao Cao was their enemy and Sun Quan was their ally to take him down. And yet, he treated his ally 1000x more horribly than his ally. This is why I insist in another thread that Shu-Wu alliance was practically non-existent, and that Shu-Wu alliance were better established post-Yi Ling because overly proud people like Guan Yu was no more. Okay, we still have Zhuge Liang but he was a lot better than Guan Yu. At least he tried to act nicely. Is there any wonder why Lu Meng (or whoever Wu officers there were) insisted Sun Quan on executing him? Guan Yu was never be a good ally!

Li_Shengsun wrote:One of the reason why i thought Guan Yu was a hypocrite is because i read it somewhere, when Xu Huang show up with his men, he greeted them as if they were friends. While Xu Huang's reaction were right, since he was on duty and not playing friends. Guan Yu's reaction after witnessing Xu Huang reaction is pretty laughable. I mean, why get angry? Xu Huang merely doing his duty to his lord.

Here it is, he's treated his men from Liu Bei side in contempt, but treated his enemies as they were his friends. It's like conveying a message that he was subconsciously wanted to serve Cao Cao instead of Liu Bei, but he unable to since he was bound by close friendship to Liu Bei and his own word of oath to loyally serve him.
Can you tell me more on this occasion? Where can I read about this? And about the thing you said about Guan Yu seemed subconsciously wanted to serve Cao Cao instead of Liu Bei, I think all these occasion is just because Guan Yu is being Guan Yu. I mean, everyone knows Guan Yu was arrogant and only respect those whom he deemed worthy and look down at those who don't with contempt. So it's not less about loyalty but more about Guan Yu being himself. I think Guan Yu was just annoyed why he needed to work with some cowards in Liu Bei's team and not some respected warriors in Cao Cao's team.

But at least we agrees on one thing: Guan Yu is not as good a person as the novel (and Dynasty Warriors) made him out to be :mrgreen: In fact, I see him more as a bully (to be honest, virtually everyone in Shu (with the exception of Zhao Yun, Huang Zhong, and Liu Chan) is :lol: )

And... there is no actual consensus that Lu Bu is the greatest warrior of 3K? My whole life is an absolute lie! :shock:
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:00 pm

I would suggest that consensus on Lu Bu being the greatest warrior is pretty universal, sure you might get some anomalies who disagree but they are far from the rule. As a snap shop this is an ancient thread on this forum where people listed who they thought were the top 10 warriors of the era. the vast majority put Lu Bu top.
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