The "What If" Thread

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:01 pm

Elitemsh wrote:
Han wrote:It goes both ways. Personalities aside, would you deny he was held in extremely high regard by pretty much everyone that comment on his generalship skill and martial prowess? Thoroughly outnumbered excluding his fight against Cao Cao. His loss to Xiahou Yuan was ultimately because Xiahou Yuan massacred the ethnic minorities and Ma Chao was surrounded at all sides with no secure power base. Lü Meng also didnt fight at Jing but the destruction of Guan Yu is credited to him. Ma Chao presence sped up the fall of Chengdu. He should receive some credit for this. At Hanzhong he had no [recorded] accomplishment. Not caring about rank? Come on thats silly and you know it. Prestige and status mattered alot in Han China. Huang Zhong fought for less than a decade. And Zhao Yun wasnt even acknowledged as a proper general or given a nobility rank even AFTER Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han. Wei Yan died to late and was never CIC other than that time he sneaked behind to buy horses and encounter Wei forces on his way back.


Ma Chao had ability for sure and some impressive accomplishments when he was independent. Ma Chao may have sped up the fall of Cheng Du but it's debatable how much since at that time Liu Bei already had the place surrounded. A small amount of credit because bottom line is he didn't fight. Huang Zhong, Zhang Fei Zhao Yun, even Liu Feng deserve much more credit as far as I'm concerned because they risked tooth and nail fighting at the front. I don't place as much emphasis on rank as you do. Huang Zhong fought very bravely for Liu Bei in his two major campaigns, Zhao Yun stuck with him in some of the most miserable times for Liu Bei. Saving his wife and son during the most horrible defeat, helping governing Jing for years, conquering territories during Yi campaign, publically suggesting good proposals, protecting Han Zhong. Obviously I don't need to talk about Guan and Zhang's contributions. Ma Chao shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath when it comes to Shu generals. Liu Bei was just the last guy he sought refuge under. Wei Yan did fight at Yi and governed Han Zhong setting up that solid defence system. Far more than Ma Chao for Shu. Ma Chao wasn't really a Shu general that's why I say he doesn't deserve his place there.


Surrounded for more than 1 year btw. And they were still holding on. And Lü Meng never fought on the front lines against Guan Yu so he doesnt deserve credit? :wink: The fact that Ma Chao sped up Liu Zhang surrender means that many troops and civillians from both sides would be spared from further bloodshed. Also, Liu Bei would have the opportunity to quicky consolidate his gains in case of further attack from Cao Cao and Zhang Lu. Governence and domestic advice are not good ways or reasonings to judge generalship. Funny thing is both Guan Yu and Huang Zhong were never Shu generals in the first place. Most of Liu Bei early followers were not Shu Han generals too. Also, neither me nor your opinions really matter. What matters is Liu Bei thoughts.

And the fact is, Zhao Yun was never made an official general. Most of his titles before Zhuge Liang rise was randomly made ranks created by Liu Bei out of thin air. Heck even after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han, Zhao Yun was never acknowledged as a noble. Not even a 'Gate marquis'. This shows that Zhao Yun was never considered the equal of Ma Chao and Zhang Fei who were both given the highest honours in Liu Bei army after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han.

And frankly speaking, ranks, titles, prestige etc etc were serious business back then AFAIK. You shouldnt just dismiss it so casually.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Han wrote:

Thats false. I dont even know what HR or court anger means. The only time ranks are given for sending signals are the domestic ones. Military ranks not so as those came with actually power[mostly]. The only exception in Liu Bei camp was Mi Zhu AFAIK.


That defectors got high ranks including military? It was a common practise. HR is human resources and in essence means people management, court anger is when a miliatry figure needs to stem court criticism so takes a rank hit.

We do know actually. According to Ma Chao SGZ. SGZ quote


'Your martial prowess is famed throughout this age'.


We know what Liu Bei said in public proclamations as part of his political and HR management of the Ma Chao situation. He was not going to say, under the circumstances, "and your record is a bit hit and miss, I don't trust you". Liu Bei was going to big up what was a star addition and send a message, like the rank, to Ma's supporters, to Wei and to the Qiang. That is different from his actual views

Because the 5 Tigers is a ROTK thing and not a historical thing. IIRC the award thing came after the conquest of Sichuan when the four are given the ranks of North,Left,Right and Rear. In history these 4 generals were also given the same rank and at the same time. And eventually these 4 generals were also posthumously honoured which I mentioned below already.

And these 4 plus Zhao Yun were known as the 5 Tigers because of their historical fame, ranking[ occupy same section] and fictional embellishment


Fair enough, I see where your coming from
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15867
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:36 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Han wrote:

Thats false. I dont even know what HR or court anger means. The only time ranks are given for sending signals are the domestic ones. Military ranks not so as those came with actually power[mostly]. The only exception in Liu Bei camp was Mi Zhu AFAIK.


That defectors got high ranks including military? It was a common practise. HR is human resources and in essence means people management, court anger is when a miliatry figure needs to stem court criticism so takes a rank hit.

We do know actually. According to Ma Chao SGZ. SGZ quote


'Your martial prowess is famed throughout this age'.


We know what Liu Bei said in public proclamations as part of his political and HR management of the Ma Chao situation. He was not going to say, under the circumstances, "and your record is a bit hit and miss, I don't trust you". Liu Bei was going to big up what was a star addition and send a message, like the rank, to Ma's supporters, to Wei and to the Qiang. That is different from his actual views

Because the 5 Tigers is a ROTK thing and not a historical thing. IIRC the award thing came after the conquest of Sichuan when the four are given the ranks of North,Left,Right and Rear. In history these 4 generals were also given the same rank and at the same time. And eventually these 4 generals were also posthumously honoured which I mentioned below already.

And these 4 plus Zhao Yun were known as the 5 Tigers because of their historical fame, ranking[ occupy same section] and fictional embellishment


Fair enough, I see where your coming from


Again it wasnt, the only time Liu Bei gave a high military rank to a surbodinate who was not given authority as a general was Mi Zhu. Even the Xu Jing example you use was a domestic rank.

By record are you referring to his generalship skill or crazy personality? Liu Bei himself shouldnt be criticising anyone win loss record considering that he had his ass handed to himself for most of his first 2 decades of his life.

Anyway, Liu Bei was definitely hyping up the apointment. But whats not pure hype is the fact that Ma Chao was equal to Zhang Fei in military rank post Guan Yu and when Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:18 pm

Han wrote:Again it wasnt, the only time Liu Bei gave a high military rank to a surbodinate who was not given authority as a general was Mi Zhu. Even the Xu Jing example you use was a domestic rank.


I do admit when I think Shu and ranks for defections, I more think Xiahou Ba and Jiang Wei. Wang Ping was promoted from colonel to general on surrendering, Pang De was offered rank due to his connections by Guan Yu. I was more thinking on those lines but on the Mi Zhu one, Jian Yong also held miliatry rank as did Sun Qian

By record are you referring to his generalship skill or crazy personality? Liu Bei himself shouldnt be criticising anyone win loss record considering that he had his ass handed to himself for most of his first 2 decades of his life.


Former. One doesn't have to be a good miliatry commander to decide if another general is good. However that wasn't really my point

Anyway, Liu Bei was definitely hyping up the apointment. But whats not pure hype is the fact that Ma Chao was equal to Zhang Fei in military rank post Guan Yu and when Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han


Sure. That could be because that was politically the correct decision to make given Ma Chao's status, Qiang connections, history with Wei and recent defection.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15867
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby wk123 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:02 pm

For me, I see Ma Chao as a Richard Sherman-type where just his presence deters opponents from attacking towards his direction.

ie Sherman's stats are not that great, but everybody knows he is one of the best.
wk123
Apprentice
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 7:47 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:10 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Han wrote:Again it wasnt, the only time Liu Bei gave a high military rank to a surbodinate who was not given authority as a general was Mi Zhu. Even the Xu Jing example you use was a domestic rank.


I do admit when I think Shu and ranks for defections, I more think Xiahou Ba and Jiang Wei. Wang Ping was promoted from colonel to general on surrendering, Pang De was offered rank due to his connections by Guan Yu. I was more thinking on those lines but on the Mi Zhu one, Jian Yong also held miliatry rank as did Sun Qian

By record are you referring to his generalship skill or crazy personality? Liu Bei himself shouldnt be criticising anyone win loss record considering that he had his ass handed to himself for most of his first 2 decades of his life.


Former. One doesn't have to be a good miliatry commander to decide if another general is good. However that wasn't really my point

Anyway, Liu Bei was definitely hyping up the apointment. But whats not pure hype is the fact that Ma Chao was equal to Zhang Fei in military rank post Guan Yu and when Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han


Sure. That could be because that was politically the correct decision to make given Ma Chao's status, Qiang connections, history with Wei and recent defection.


So common practice but Liu Bei army did it 4 times only ok. Xiahou Ba was highly promoted because he had close ties with the Imperial family and the Xiahou clan was one of the most powerful clans from the beginning of Cao Cao rise in both domestic and military affiats. Jiang Wei was because Zhuge Liang loved him. Wang Ping I will give but that came during a middle of a long campaign spanning months where encouraging defections and weaknesses would be important. Excluding the connections, Pang De was also encouraged to defect through ranks because he was also acknowledged by the Han court as a nobility. So basically these examples werent just 'ranks for defections' and shouldnt be chalk up as such. In reality all of these individuals you mentioned were promotoed/appointed not just because of their defection but mainly their reputation and relationships with the higher ups.

Sure. But it would be hypocritical.

And his generalship skill, martial prowess, Empire-wide reputation, unification of the ethnic minorities for a short period of time, acknowledged as a noble, ambushed Cao Cao and defeated Xiahou Yuan once and etc etc. Also, his defection wasnt 'recent' it came 5yrs plus ago.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:05 pm

Han wrote:Surrounded for more than 1 year btw. And they were still holding on. And Lü Meng never fought on the front lines against Guan Yu so he doesnt deserve credit? :wink: The fact that Ma Chao sped up Liu Zhang surrender means that many troops and civillians from both sides would be spared from further bloodshed. Also, Liu Bei would have the opportunity to quicky consolidate his gains in case of further attack from Cao Cao and Zhang Lu. Governence and domestic advice are not good ways or reasonings to judge generalship. Funny thing is both Guan Yu and Huang Zhong were never Shu generals in the first place. Most of Liu Bei early followers were not Shu Han generals too. Also, neither me nor your opinions really matter. What matters is Liu Bei thoughts.

And the fact is, Zhao Yun was never made an official general. Most of his titles before Zhuge Liang rise was randomly made ranks created by Liu Bei out of thin air. Heck even after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han, Zhao Yun was never acknowledged as a noble. Not even a 'Gate marquis'. This shows that Zhao Yun was never considered the equal of Ma Chao and Zhang Fei who were both given the highest honours in Liu Bei army after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han.

And frankly speaking, ranks, titles, prestige etc etc were serious business back then AFAIK. You shouldnt just dismiss it so casually.


Lu Meng example is an odd one to give. He planned pretty much that entire campaign. Of course he deserves massive credit. Ma Chao didn't plan Yi or Han Zhong. Ma Chao may have sped up the surrender but we don't know by how much. What we know is Ma Chao just came to Liu Bei because he had nowhere else to go. From that point all he did was be paired with Zhang Fei (maybe because he wasn't trusted to be alone) and made to retreat. Then he dies a few years later. When it comes to service to Liu Bei or his cause you've got to admit there's not much to admire about Ma Chao. The other four had all their best accomplishments under Liu Bei. Furthering his cause through blood, sweat and tears.

Doesn't really matter. Liu Bei used him a lot. Put him at the front in his campaigns and he did the job. He led the reinforcements and conquered territories along his own marching route to Yi. In terms of fighting and commanding, only Zhang Fei and Liu Bei did more in that campaign. Han Zhong was a skirmish but since he's met with Cao's van it obviously means he's right at the front along with Huang Zhong. If Liu Bei didn't think the guy could fight and lead troops he wouldn't be in the most dangerous place a person be.

I place more emphasis on how someone is utilised and where they're assigned not on rewards and titles.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1422
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:07 pm

Elitemsh wrote:
Han wrote:Surrounded for more than 1 year btw. And they were still holding on. And Lü Meng never fought on the front lines against Guan Yu so he doesnt deserve credit? :wink: The fact that Ma Chao sped up Liu Zhang surrender means that many troops and civillians from both sides would be spared from further bloodshed. Also, Liu Bei would have the opportunity to quicky consolidate his gains in case of further attack from Cao Cao and Zhang Lu. Governence and domestic advice are not good ways or reasonings to judge generalship. Funny thing is both Guan Yu and Huang Zhong were never Shu generals in the first place. Most of Liu Bei early followers were not Shu Han generals too. Also, neither me nor your opinions really matter. What matters is Liu Bei thoughts.

And the fact is, Zhao Yun was never made an official general. Most of his titles before Zhuge Liang rise was randomly made ranks created by Liu Bei out of thin air. Heck even after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han, Zhao Yun was never acknowledged as a noble. Not even a 'Gate marquis'. This shows that Zhao Yun was never considered the equal of Ma Chao and Zhang Fei who were both given the highest honours in Liu Bei army after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han.

And frankly speaking, ranks, titles, prestige etc etc were serious business back then AFAIK. You shouldnt just dismiss it so casually.


Lu Meng example is an odd one to give. He planned pretty much that entire campaign. Of course he deserves massive credit. Ma Chao didn't plan Yi or Han Zhong. Ma Chao may have sped up the surrender but we don't know by how much. What we know is Ma Chao just came to Liu Bei because he had nowhere else to go. From that point all he did was be paired with Zhang Fei (maybe because he wasn't trusted to be alone) and made to retreat. Then he dies a few years later. When it comes to service to Liu Bei or his cause you've got to admit there's not much to admire about Ma Chao. The other four had all their best accomplishments under Liu Bei. Furthering his cause through blood, sweat and tears.

Doesn't really matter. Liu Bei used him a lot. Put him at the front in his campaigns and he did the job. He led the reinforcements and conquered territories along his own marching route to Yi. In terms of fighting and commanding, only Zhang Fei and Liu Bei did more in that campaign. Han Zhong was a skirmish but since he's met with Cao's van it obviously means he's right at the front along with Huang Zhong. If Liu Bei didn't think the guy could fight and lead troops he wouldn't be in the most dangerous place a person be.

I place more emphasis on how someone is utilised and where they're assigned not on rewards and titles.


But he never fought on the front lines. :wink: . Isnt that the criteria here? But what we do know was that Liu Zhang immediately surrendered after months mainly because of Ma Chao presence. Generals get paired up ALL the time. The five Wei elites teamed up various times even though they didnt always get along. The other 4 contributed more to Liu Bei enterprise? Maybe? But Ma Chao gave Liu Bei alot of prestige and helped him secure his new powerbase with little bloodshed. Anyway, limiting Ma Chao accomplishments to just under Liu Bei and then use that as the measuring stick of Ma Chao abilities and reputation isnt appropriate and straight up unfair.

I already showed u why it mattered but ok. Did his job? We are comparing generalship. In that case, Changban was a defeat. In Chibi, Zhang Fei was promoted and rewarded with nobility while Zhao Yun received nothing showing he had little contributions. In Sichuan, Liu Bei was the CIC of main force, Huang Zhong and Zhuo Ying(?) were the vanguards of the main force, Pang Tong and Fa Zheng were the main advisors, Zhang Fei was CIC of reinforcement, Zhuge Liang seemed to be the coordinator(?). So no, Zhao Yun did not do 'more' in the campaign than all these guys. The fact that Liu Bei paired him up with Huang Zhong shows that he didnt trust him.(/s).

Its not Ma Chao fault he died too soon to be utillised [by Liu Bei/Zhuge Liang]. Even then, Ma Chao was trusted as the CIC of the Guanxi alliance, which consisted of various ethnic groups and hostile warlords while Zhao Yun was never CIC of anything.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:35 pm

But he never fought on the front lines. :wink: . Isnt that the criteria here?


No but I can see where you got that from. What "fought" means in places like this: was in battle rather then in frontlines. That is what I'm 99% sure Elitemsh means

So common practice but Liu Bei army did it 4 times only ok. Xiahou Ba was highly promoted because he had close ties with the Imperial family and the Xiahou clan was one of the most powerful clans from the beginning of Cao Cao rise in both domestic and military affiats. Jiang Wei was because Zhuge Liang loved him. Wang Ping I will give but that came during a middle of a long campaign spanning months where encouraging defections and weaknesses would be important. Excluding the connections, Pang De was also encouraged to defect through ranks because he was also acknowledged by the Han court as a nobility. So basically these examples werent just 'ranks for defections' and shouldnt be chalk up as such. In reality all of these individuals you mentioned were promotoed/appointed not just because of their defection but mainly their reputation and relationships with the higher ups.


Liu Bei didn't have many defections :wink: It was also common outside Shu, someone defects, you give them high ranks including miliatry, say how awesome they are possibly then... well it depends on the defectors ability and trust. Some quickly prove worthy of that rank, others never get used

So Xiahou Ba is political. Jiang Wei got a nice juicy rank even beyond a "hey this guy has made a good first impression" but that first impression got him onto an actual career path. That is exactly the point of such ranks with Wang Ping. With Pang De there isn't any mention of that being a reasoning for Guan Yu and while nice to get a marquis defecting, wouldn't have been anywhere near as prestige as a Ma Chao. Relations with higher ups is political

Sure. But it would be hypocritical.


Possibly but it would be extremely negligent and bad rulership if he didn't do his job of working out which officers are good enough even if the ruler himself may lack in a particular skill

And his generalship skill, martial prowess, Empire-wide reputation, unification of the ethnic minorities for a short period of time, acknowledged as a noble, ambushed Cao Cao and defeated Xiahou Yuan once and etc etc. Also, his defection wasnt 'recent' it came 5yrs plus ago.


Three and 4 is political usefulness for miliatry rank, marquis in itself isn't that useful but Ma Chao's non-noble rank was (also slightly awkward). Isn't the big 4 thing in the immediate aftermath of taking of Yi and where Guan Yu gets unhappy?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15867
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:17 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
But he never fought on the front lines. :wink: . Isnt that the criteria here?


No but I can see where you got that from. What "fought" means in places like this: was in battle rather then in frontlines. That is what I'm 99% sure Elitemsh means

So common practice but Liu Bei army did it 4 times only ok. Xiahou Ba was highly promoted because he had close ties with the Imperial family and the Xiahou clan was one of the most powerful clans from the beginning of Cao Cao rise in both domestic and military affiats. Jiang Wei was because Zhuge Liang loved him. Wang Ping I will give but that came during a middle of a long campaign spanning months where encouraging defections and weaknesses would be important. Excluding the connections, Pang De was also encouraged to defect through ranks because he was also acknowledged by the Han court as a nobility. So basically these examples werent just 'ranks for defections' and shouldnt be chalk up as such. In reality all of these individuals you mentioned were promotoed/appointed not just because of their defection but mainly their reputation and relationships with the higher ups.


Liu Bei didn't have many defections :wink: It was also common outside Shu, someone defects, you give them high ranks including miliatry, say how awesome they are possibly then... well it depends on the defectors ability and trust. Some quickly prove worthy of that rank, others never get used

So Xiahou Ba is political. Jiang Wei got a nice juicy rank even beyond a "hey this guy has made a good first impression" but that first impression got him onto an actual career path. That is exactly the point of such ranks with Wang Ping. With Pang De there isn't any mention of that being a reasoning for Guan Yu and while nice to get a marquis defecting, wouldn't have been anywhere near as prestige as a Ma Chao. Relations with higher ups is political

Sure. But it would be hypocritical.


Possibly but it would be extremely negligent and bad rulership if he didn't do his job of working out which officers are good enough even if the ruler himself may lack in a particular skill

And his generalship skill, martial prowess, Empire-wide reputation, unification of the ethnic minorities for a short period of time, acknowledged as a noble, ambushed Cao Cao and defeated Xiahou Yuan once and etc etc. Also, his defection wasnt 'recent' it came 5yrs plus ago.


Three and 4 is political usefulness for miliatry rank, marquis in itself isn't that useful but Ma Chao's non-noble rank was (also slightly awkward). Isn't the big 4 thing in the immediate aftermath of taking of Yi and where Guan Yu gets unhappy?


He said 'blood sweat and tears' so one would assume frontlines. Regardless, it would be nice if he clarified his own point.

What NO! In comparison to Cao Cao definitely. Sun Quan maybe but Liu Bei still received alot of defections

Liu Bei SGZ states

Many of Liu Cong's supporters and the people of Jing province went over to the Former Lord.


To Establish Peace states

Liu Zhang sent his officers Liu Gui, Leng Bao, Zhang Ren, Deng Xian, Wu Yi and others to oppose Liu Bei.14 They were all defeated and came back to hold Mianzhu,15 while Wu Yi went to Liu Bei's camp to surrender. Then Liu Zhang sent Li Yan of Nanyang and Fei Guan of Jiangxia as Protectors of the Army to take control of all the forces at Mianzhu, but they too brought their troops and surrendered to Liu Bei.16 Liu Bei's army
became stronger and stronger, and he sent some of his officers to pacify and overcome the subordinate counties.


Those who defected to Liu Bei but received ranks only after Sichuan was settled includes Fa Zheng, Gong Chen, Li Hui, Meng Da, Wu Yi etc. If Liu Bei wanted to 'send signals' one would think he would give them ranks. Heck, he didnt even affirm their positions much less give them ranks much less give them high ranks much less a high rank on par with Ma Chao.

Affirming current rank? Frequently so. Giving slight promotions? Maybe. Seems to be a case by case basis. But High military rank? No. Ma Chao was a very special case.

Also, Wang Ping wasnt even given a high rank. Major general is high compared to colonel but not in comparison to Ma Chao.

Anyways, Im discussing Liu Bei plus Shu Han. I dont know why you keep mentioning the other Governments while not even mentioning any examples so you are just creating useless noise.

Excluding Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Ma Chao, the only generals that were acknowledged to be nobility by the official East Han court would be Pang De if he joined Liu Bei regime.

Political? Sure. So I guess it isnt 'ranks for defections' :wink: . Remember, I never denied that relations with higher up was political so I dont know why you bring it up? In fact I said in the beginning

Using that logic, every appointment in the period was also because of 'political purposes'.


What I said was that the 4 people that you mention wasnt 'ranks for defections' like you claimed. I in fact agree that their ranks were more 'political purposes' reputation and relationships. Again, not a simple 'ranks for defections'.

I dont disagree with this view. But regardless Liu Bei admired Ma Chao. Excluding the official edict that you so casually dismiss as simple hype, theres also the anecdote that Liu Bei was very pleased that he exclaimed Yi was his due to Ma Chao offer to join him.

Agreed.

I know. Im just listing all possible reasons why Liu Bei would use/admire Ma Chao. As for the big 4 yes it happened AFTER Sichuan. But I was referring to Ma Chao prestige where he was given equal status with Zhang Fei post Guan Yu death during Shu Han Empire hence the statement

when Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved