The "What If" Thread

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:53 am

Han wrote:Thats a vague describtion of 'political purposes'. Using that logic, every appointment in the period was also because of 'political purposes'. Every appointment and promotion was because the promotor/leader 'could not afford not to' give them if you think about it. Anyway, Ma Chao did not get in because Liu Bei was forced to do so. He got in because he was a proven leader and commander. Thats it. Though his prestige definitely did help


At higher levels of government? They can do. In this case reputation at home and abroad, people management and future goals are playing their part.

Sure Liu Bei could have rejected Ma Chao, he could also decide not to give Xu Jing high rank, as long as Liu Bei didn't want to be an able ruler anymore. If Liu Bei wanted to rule well then he had to. If Zhang Ren is to break into the 5 tigers in this scenario, we need to see which ones could be dislodged. Realistically I think possibly only Zhao Yun given political factors behind the other four and that wasn't going to happen given his long service and saving Liu Shan's life
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15930
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby wk123 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:42 pm

Was there a strict limit on the 5 tigers? I know 6 Tigers doesn't sound as good

Also, were there any other than Zhang Ren who would have been considered?
wk123
Apprentice
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 7:47 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:40 pm

wk123 wrote:Was there a strict limit on the 5 tigers? I know 6 Tigers doesn't sound as good

Also, were there any other than Zhang Ren who would have been considered?


5 seems to be the number of these things, I can't say I know the reason why

Han gave some good possibilities (bar Liu Feng possibly ruled out by being a Liu?) if talking talent alone, Liu Shan's list had Pang Tong in it
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15930
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby wk123 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:49 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
5 seems to be the number of these things, I can't say I know the reason why

Han gave some good possibilities (bar Liu Feng possibly ruled out by being a Liu?) if talking talent alone, Liu Shan's list had Pang Tong in it


Thanks Dong. And thanks Han, I see that list now in your previous post.

Love Pang Tong. Shame he and ZGL never got to tag team in a major campaign.
wk123
Apprentice
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 7:47 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:59 pm

All appointments at the top level are primarily political. Merit is secondary.


But Ma Chao appointment was not solely 'political purposes'.

At higher levels of government? They can do. In this case reputation at home and abroad, people management and future goals are playing their part.

Sure Liu Bei could have rejected Ma Chao, he could also decide not to give Xu Jing high rank, as long as Liu Bei didn't want to be an able ruler anymore. If Liu Bei wanted to rule well then he had to. If Zhang Ren is to break into the 5 tigers in this scenario, we need to see which ones could be dislodged. Realistically I think possibly only Zhao Yun given political factors behind the other four and that wasn't going to happen given his long service and saving Liu Shan's life


Sure. But seldom military ranks.

Thats not what I said. Im saying Liu Bei would not have rejected Ma Chao in the first place not because 'he could not afford to do so' but because of 'Ma Chao skill and ability'. Xu Jing I will give but his appointment came after Liu Bei became Emperor and political support would be important. The appointment for the 4 generals(yes not 5) came after King of Hanzhong, not Emperor of Shu Han.

Its Zhao Yun but again not because of political factors.

Its because Zhao Yun merits and experience as CIC were lower than Guan Yu(killed Yan Liang/CIC in Xu/rescued Liu Bei/rescued Liu Bei in Bowang), Zhang Fei(CIC in Xu/CIC of reinforcment/destroyed Zhang He), Ma Chao(CIC of the rebellion against Cao Cao/ambushed Cao Cao/ambushed Xiahou Yian/frightened ChengDu into submission), Huang Zhong(vanguard in Sichuan/slayed Xiahou Yuan).

Was there a strict limit on the 5 tigers? I know 6 Tigers doesn't sound as good

Also, were there any other than Zhang Ren who would have been considered?


5 seems to be the number of these things, I can't say I know the reason why

Han gave some good possibilities (bar Liu Feng possibly ruled out by being a Liu?) if talking talent alone, Liu Shan's list had Pang Tong in it


It was 4. General of Front,Right,Left, and Rear. Guan, Zhang, Ma, Huang was appointed to these positions at the same time with the understanding that Guan Yu was first among equals. Subsequently, these 4 plus Zhao Yun would be recorded in the same section in the historical writing of 'Records of the Three Kingdoms'.

So the question should be 'Why were these 5 placed in the same section?'

This is because 1. They all died within the same decade. 2. They function mainly as military generals but were capable of administrative tasks bar Huang Zhong. 3. Guan, Zhang and Ma had fame and reputation throughout the entirety of China while Huang and Zhao had fame within Liu Bei regime. 4. As noted here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4030&p=612314&hilit=Pang+tong#p612314

Chen Shou noted during Liu Shan's resign
Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Ma Chao, Pang Tong, Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun were all subsequently compensated with a title during Liu Shan’s time and this title rewarding was deemed as a great honor
, Pang Tong doesn't quite fit the same comments of bravery so Chen Shou doesn't make it six tiger generals. Note the generals are all in the same period whereas Wei Yan and Wang Ping came into play later. Zhao Yun had saved Liu Shan's life, served Liu Bei through difficult times, helped take Yi and Hanzhong including possible empty city plot, gave advice, noted bravery in battle
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:25 pm

Ma Chao had some fame and a lot of infamy. He was ultimately thoroughly defeated multiple times. In terms of contribution to Shu his was certainly the least. He didn't fight at Yi and Han Zhong he had no accomplishment. If anything Ma Chao was the odd one out in that list. I don't care about the rank. Ma Chao joined Liu Bei as an opportunist. The other four fought with loyal courage on the front lines for Liu Bei, risking their lives and for many years. Huang Zhong a bit less so since he joined in much less desperate times. I'd argue Wei Yan could be there instead of Ma Chao but he behaved like such a prick towards the end so maybe not.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:15 pm

Elitemsh wrote:Ma Chao had some fame and a lot of infamy. He was ultimately thoroughly defeated multiple times. In terms of contribution to Shu his was certainly the least. He didn't fight at Yi and Han Zhong he had no accomplishment. If anything Ma Chao was the odd one out in that list. I don't care about the rank. Ma Chao joined Liu Bei as an opportunist. The other four fought with loyal courage on the front lines for Liu Bei, risking their lives and for many years. Huang Zhong a bit less so since he joined in much less desperate times. I'd argue Wei Yan could be there instead of Ma Chao but he behaved like such a prick towards the end so maybe not.


It goes both ways. Personalities aside, would you deny he was held in extremely high regard by pretty much everyone that comment on his generalship skill and martial prowess? Thoroughly outnumbered excluding his fight against Cao Cao. His loss to Xiahou Yuan was ultimately because Xiahou Yuan massacred the ethnic minorities and Ma Chao was surrounded at all sides with no secure power base. Lü Meng also didnt fight at Jing but the destruction of Guan Yu is credited to him. Ma Chao presence sped up the fall of Chengdu. He should receive some credit for this. At Hanzhong he had no [recorded] accomplishment. Not caring about rank? Come on thats silly and you know it. Prestige and status mattered alot in Han China. Huang Zhong fought for less than a decade. And Zhao Yun wasnt even acknowledged as a proper general or given a nobility rank even AFTER Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han. Wei Yan died to late and was never CIC other than that time he sneaked behind to buy horses and encounter Wei forces on his way back.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:06 pm

Han wrote:
Sure. But seldom military ranks.

Thats not what I said. Im saying Liu Bei would not have rejected Ma Chao in the first place not because 'he could not afford to do so' but because of 'Ma Chao skill and ability'. Xu Jing I will give but his appointment came after Liu Bei became Emperor and political support would be important. The appointment for the 4 generals(yes not 5) came after King of Hanzhong, not Emperor of Shu Han.

Its Zhao Yun but again not because of political factors.

Its because Zhao Yun merits and experience as CIC were lower than Guan Yu(killed Yan Liang/CIC in Xu/rescued Liu Bei/rescued Liu Bei in Bowang), Zhang Fei(CIC in Xu/CIC of reinforcment/destroyed Zhang He), Ma Chao(CIC of the rebellion against Cao Cao/ambushed Cao Cao/ambushed Xiahou Yian/frightened ChengDu into submission), Huang Zhong(vanguard in Sichuan/slayed Xiahou Yuan).


Military ranks were used for "come, this guy joined us", for HR, for sending signals, for dealing with court anger and so on.

We don't know Liu Bei's personal feelings towards Ma Chao and his abilities, I imagine he rated him but even if he thought Ma Chao was poor he had to take him. You say the 4 and mention it elsewhere in your post but where is that from? First time I have heard the 5 tigers came from that, usually I hear it is from Liu Shan's 5.

That and political factors.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15930
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:43 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Han wrote:
Sure. But seldom military ranks.

Thats not what I said. Im saying Liu Bei would not have rejected Ma Chao in the first place not because 'he could not afford to do so' but because of 'Ma Chao skill and ability'. Xu Jing I will give but his appointment came after Liu Bei became Emperor and political support would be important. The appointment for the 4 generals(yes not 5) came after King of Hanzhong, not Emperor of Shu Han.

Its Zhao Yun but again not because of political factors.

Its because Zhao Yun merits and experience as CIC were lower than Guan Yu(killed Yan Liang/CIC in Xu/rescued Liu Bei/rescued Liu Bei in Bowang), Zhang Fei(CIC in Xu/CIC of reinforcment/destroyed Zhang He), Ma Chao(CIC of the rebellion against Cao Cao/ambushed Cao Cao/ambushed Xiahou Yian/frightened ChengDu into submission), Huang Zhong(vanguard in Sichuan/slayed Xiahou Yuan).


Military ranks were used for "come, this guy joined us", for HR, for sending signals, for dealing with court anger and so on.

We don't know Liu Bei's personal feelings towards Ma Chao and his abilities, I imagine he rated him but even if he thought Ma Chao was poor he had to take him. You say the 4 and mention it elsewhere in your post but where is that from? First time I have heard the 5 tigers came from that, usually I hear it is from Liu Shan's 5.

That and political factors.


Thats false. I dont even know what HR or court anger means. The only time ranks are given for sending signals are the domestic ones. Military ranks not so as those came with actually power[mostly]. The only exception in Liu Bei camp was Mi Zhu AFAIK.

We do know actually. According to Ma Chao SGZ.

The Former Lord sent a man to receive Ma Chao and Ma Chao’s troops reached the walls of the city. Those within the city were alarmed and Liu Zhang surrendered immediately. The Former Lord assigned Ma Chao General who Pacifies the West, administering Linju and extended his former enfeoffment as Marquis of Duting. The Former Lord became King of Hanzhong and assigned Ma Chao General of the Left, with insignia bestowed. In the year of Zhangwu [221], he was promoted to the role of General of Chariots and Cavalry, and Governor of Liangzhou, with enfeoffment as Marquis of Fengxiang. The edict decreed: “We have few virtues to speak of. We have succeeded to the throne and consecrate the imperial clan temples. Cao Cao and his son have committed countless crimes in their time and deserve to come to judgement. For this We are pained with bitter hatred. All within the Seas are angry; they hope to restore legitimacy and return to the basics. Even the Di and Qiang are willing to follow; even the northern barbarians are capable of admiring the great cause. Your trustworthiness is famed throughout the northern lands and your martial prowess is famed throughout this age. Hence the task is bestowed on you and We hope that you can exercise the spirit of a tiger in managing the ten thousand mile lands and caring for the pains of the people. You should propagate the teachings of the Court, maintain in peace the lands far and near, somberly administer rewards and punishment to extend the fortunes of the Han and be worthy of All Under Heaven.”


'Your martial prowess is famed throughout this age'.

Because the 5 Tigers is a ROTK thing and not a historical thing. IIRC the award thing came after the conquest of Sichuan when the four are given the ranks of North,Left,Right and Rear. In history these 4 generals were also given the same rank and at the same time. And eventually these 4 generals were also posthumously honoured which I mentioned below already.

And these 4 plus Zhao Yun were known as the 5 Tigers because of their historical fame, ranking[ occupy same section] and fictional embellishment
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Scholar
 
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:34 pm

Han wrote:It goes both ways. Personalities aside, would you deny he was held in extremely high regard by pretty much everyone that comment on his generalship skill and martial prowess? Thoroughly outnumbered excluding his fight against Cao Cao. His loss to Xiahou Yuan was ultimately because Xiahou Yuan massacred the ethnic minorities and Ma Chao was surrounded at all sides with no secure power base. Lü Meng also didnt fight at Jing but the destruction of Guan Yu is credited to him. Ma Chao presence sped up the fall of Chengdu. He should receive some credit for this. At Hanzhong he had no [recorded] accomplishment. Not caring about rank? Come on thats silly and you know it. Prestige and status mattered alot in Han China. Huang Zhong fought for less than a decade. And Zhao Yun wasnt even acknowledged as a proper general or given a nobility rank even AFTER Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han. Wei Yan died to late and was never CIC other than that time he sneaked behind to buy horses and encounter Wei forces on his way back.


Ma Chao had ability for sure and some impressive accomplishments when he was independent. Ma Chao may have sped up the fall of Cheng Du but it's debatable how much since at that time Liu Bei already had the place surrounded. A small amount of credit because bottom line is he didn't fight. Huang Zhong, Zhang Fei Zhao Yun, even Liu Feng deserve much more credit as far as I'm concerned because they risked tooth and nail fighting at the front. I don't place as much emphasis on rank as you do. Huang Zhong fought very bravely for Liu Bei in his two major campaigns, Zhao Yun stuck with him in some of the most miserable times for Liu Bei. Saving his wife and son during the most horrible defeat, helping governing Jing for years, conquering territories during Yi campaign, publically suggesting good proposals, protecting Han Zhong. Obviously I don't need to talk about Guan and Zhang's contributions. Ma Chao shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath when it comes to Shu generals. Liu Bei was just the last guy he sought refuge under. Wei Yan did fight at Yi and governed Han Zhong setting up that solid defence system. Far more than Ma Chao for Shu. Ma Chao wasn't really a Shu general that's why I say he doesn't deserve his place there.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved