The "What If" Thread

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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:56 pm

Actually Sima Yi seized power in a coup after this event. So if he would have died, then I doubt that there would have been a coup, which would keep the Sima clan from gaining any real power. And because the coup never happened then Wei would have been on equal footing with Shu, that is until Deng Ai came to be a supreme power on the battlefield.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:07 pm

Just a couple of things, spinning off of SA's post here:
Separation Anxiety wrote:Actually Sima Yi seized power in a coup after this event. So if he would have died, then I doubt that there would have been a coup, which would keep the Sima clan from gaining any real power.

I have my chronology messed up: are you talking about the Cao Shuang coup? If so, then Cao Shuang would have continued to allow the Wei court to fall into ruin. He would also have been able to get rid of the Sima sons if he wanted to, without Sima Yi's plots to stop him.

Separation Anxiety wrote:And because the coup never happened then Wei would have been on equal footing with Shu, that is until Deng Ai came to be a supreme power on the battlefield.

I have my doubts about this, though. Sima Yi was largely responsible for Deng Ai's rise to power. Not many others really took him seriously. If Sima Yi was killed, Deng Ai may never have come to prominence.

Another thing to consider would be the fate of Zhuge Liang. Would he have been able to gain a deeper foothold in the north without Sima Yi to stop him? I don't mean actually moving on to capture Changan (which may have been possible), but at least gaining enough territory to take a rest and not die of exhaustion. Unless Wei managed a really good general-shuffle in time, then I think Zhuge Liang would be a lot more successful without Sima Yi around and with Cao Shuang still in charge.
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:03 am

Kong Wen wrote:I have my chronology messed up: are you talking about the Cao Shuang coup? If so, then Cao Shuang would have continued to allow the Wei court to fall into ruin. He would also have been able to get rid of the Sima sons if he wanted to, without Sima Yi's plots to stop him.

I think Sima Yi and his two sons were at Shangfang Valley together, so they'd be killed together.

I'm not sure if people have ever heard of this theory: due to the geography of the valley, when the air is heated up, it cannot travel through the bottleneck created by the valley and escape into the surrounding atmosphere as quickly, which results in a pressure build-up around the neck of the valley, which in turn decreases the boiling point and causes water vapor to recondense.
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Unread postby Elemental » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:52 am

I agree with Kong Wen. Cao Shuang's coup siezed power and influenced the Wei government into ruin. Sima Yi eventually put this coup to its end. But if Sima Yi died before the coup started, Cao Shuang would have probably lead to Wei's downfall.

Besides Sima Yi, there are not many generals of Wei that could have equaled Zhuge Liang. Even if Wei was able to win several matches against Shu's Zhuge Liang, eventually, Shu would gain.

I think that if Sima Yi died from the fires, Zhuge Liang would continue to gain foothold in Wei's land. Deng Ai was not in a high position, and would continue to be of low rank if Sima Yi never noticed his potential. Also, Zhong Hui would not be talented enough to withstand Zhuge Liang or Jiang Wei. Zhuge Liang would manage to push into Wei, and conquer enough land so that Shu and Wu would not fall.

After Zhuge Liang died, Jiang Wei would not have a more talented rival- Deng Ai to contend with. Jiang Wei could have managed to conquer more land, with the footholds Zhuge Liang gained. In the end, Wei might have been the first to be vanquished. From then on, Wu and Shu might have come to an alliance, or continued to fight.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:58 am

I think if someone was talented they would be noticed. Sima Yi noticed him early. And I think Zhong Hui knew that Deng had potential. Also I was referring to the coup that Sima Yi threw to get power after feigning illness. If he had not been around to throw this coup, then Wei would have remained Wei. Also didn't Sima Yi notice Deng Ai early on, back before he would have died?
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Unread postby Dream Theater » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:36 pm

Meh...Yuan Shao didnt deal well under pressure, and he didnt respond too gracefully when things were changed on the spot on him, there are so many factors that could of still led to his demise. I believe he would of just pro-longed the inevitable in my opinion, he was a cocky little punk, I never liked the way he conducted himself in battle and in relations with other kingdoms.
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Cao Cao and the Nanman

Unread postby Elven Fury » Sun May 02, 2004 7:28 pm

Do you think that if Cao had conquered Sun Jian, and Liu Bei, do you think he could have held the southern tribes at bay like Zhuge Liang did? do you think he would have gone on a southern expiditon? could he have conquered the rattan armor of Wu Tugu or the springs? what do you all think?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun May 02, 2004 8:33 pm

Southern tribes suck.
Shanyue,Nanyue and Nanman have nothing on the northern tribes.
Since Cao Cao has proven adept at dealing with the northerners you can be certain that he'll bring thos southern tribes to heel.
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Unread postby Elemental » Mon May 03, 2004 12:43 am

If the southern tribes revolted, then yes, he would have conquered and pacified them.

Cao Cao might not have the adept military skill and tactics of Zhuge Liang, but he would have the combined and strengthened power of Shu, Wu, and Wei. And he would have the more prestigious generals and veterans that most of us think about when we think of the Three Kingdoms era (Zhang Liao, Zhang He, Five Tigers [though they probably wouldn't surrender], Lu Meng, etc). If Cao Cao is still alive to have to deal with the southern tribes, I'm assuming these "veteran" generals are also still alive. Zhuge Liang had, though quite talented men, many less prestigious officers, such as Wang Ping and Zhang Ni, and lacked officers such as Guan Yu and Zhang Fei when he went on the southern campaign.

Cao Cao would eventually overcome the hardships of the south, and pacify the tribes. He would have many more troops at hand, and more power, supplies, etc. He would also not have to worry about attacks from other kingdoms, because Shu and Wu were already conquered. Therefore, he would not have to employ most of his generals away to defend the kingdom (for example, Zhuge Liang left Ma Chao to defend Shu on the southern campaign).
Last edited by Elemental on Mon May 03, 2004 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Master Zhuge Liang » Mon May 03, 2004 1:08 am

I think they could have, those Elephants though they're slow they are very strong and effective. With the right stratergy and attack they could have but they might of been over powered by Cao Cao's large army and The Nanman have a feild advantage, they know the terrain like the back of their hand, Wei don't.
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