The "What If" Thread

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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:21 am

Im not sure if both Xu Huang and Zhang Liao were both defeated. I think only Xu Huang was defeated.
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Unread postby K'ung-Ming » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:37 am

Cao Cao probably would've lost -- Yan Liang and Wen Chou would've cut down his force so that he was even more overwhelmed when/if he reached Guan Du. I think, by that time, Yuan Shao's sheer numbers -- now magnified by the advantages provided by the chunks taken out of Cao Cao's army -- would have been sufficient to defeat Cao Cao. From there, history would've been completely different..
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:31 am

I dont really know if Yuan Shao would have necessarily won just because of numbers. He may have had less people, but his strategists were more skilled, he had some really good generals, sooner or later one would have taken Yan or Wen out, he only sent 3 in before sending Guan Yu. Numbers isnt everything, look at the battle of Chi Bi, Cao nearly doubled the amount of troops of Wu and Shu combined. Cao Cao would have probably cut off the supply lines of Yuan still and Zhang He would have left Yuan sooner or later, and if Wen Chou and Yan Liang were still alive they might of had rumors spread about them also and left with Zhang.
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If zhang Fei had killed both Dong Zhou and Cao Cao

Unread postby master Zhou Tai » Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:12 am

If Zhang Fei had killed both Dong Zhou and Cao Cao when he wanted, would this period never have happened
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Unread postby Lord Sun Ce » Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:16 am

I'm not sure Zhang Fei had the ample oppertunity to do either, or i'm sure he would have. He would gladly have slain Dong Zhuo, and unlike Guan Yu would not have let Cao Cao live. If Zhang Fei had killed Dong Zhuo, Lu Bu would have taken over. There would be a lot of turmoil and Lu Bu would have been slain in a revolt. Although once again if Zhang Fei killed Dong Zhuo he probably would have killed Lu Bu if he got in the way if the time period was correct. I dont know about Cao Cao though. Xiahou Dun maybe?
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Unread postby Wizardman » Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:57 pm

Zhang Fei killing Dong Zhuo:
Most Radical scenario: If Zhang Fei killed Dong Zhuo, then there would have been no alliance, which would mean none of the Liu Bei/Lu Bu stuff, which would mean Yuan Shu wouldn't have been involved in that, which meant that he'd probably have helped (or armed) Sun Ce more, and for all we know, Yuan Shu would have been in charge of a kingdom instead of Sun Ce. Guan Du would probably still happen, but little else would.

Least Radical Scenario: If Zhang Fei killed Dong Zhuo, history would have progressed normally with Lu Bu in Dong Zhuo's plaace. Just no Wang Yun/Diaochan stuff.

Zhang Fei killing Cao Cao:
I'm acutally not sure what would happen. The Xiahous may have taken over, at least until Cao Pi was old enough. Yuan Shao could very well have been a fourth kingdom for a short time. But besides that, history would eventually lead back to what it is now, but that wouldn't happen until 220, when Cao Pi will supposedly usurp the emperor, like is history.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:57 pm

If Zhang Fei killed Dong Zhuo the fisrt time he wanted to, during the Yellow Turban Rebellion, I would imagine that Zhang Fei would have been executed for killing a Han general. And this was prior to Lu Bu joining Dong, so I'd imagine that someone like He Jin or Huangfu Song would have taken his power.

If he killed Cao Cao same thing, he would be killed by Cao Cao's supporters. Then someone like Cao Ren, Xiahou Dun or Guo Jia or Xun Wenruo would have taken power for the time, or perhaps Cao Ang, he was still alive at this point and was old enough to hold power.
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If Yuan Shao had slain Xu You...

Unread postby Tonto_Simfish » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:07 pm

Then do you suppose Yuan Shao could have actually had a chance to win the war against Cao Cao? (Besides, executing or even just jailing Xu You would fit along with Yuan Shao's personality) Cao Cao only had 1 month's left of food reserves, and no other officers actually did defect from Yuan Shao's camp until the fighting really began (Thus, Cao would not know of the position that Chunyu Qiong had actually held). Though I would not be so sure if the trick he used against Yuan Shu (i.e., deliberately lowering rations, then executing the pwerson who assigns rations to give the troops a huge morale boost) would work with Shao; because if he uses the tactic too many times, then the troops will get suspicious.

If Cao Cao ran out of food reserves, then he would probably have had to retreat though. SOme of Yuan Shao's advisors would advocate a specific method of pursuit, which Yuan SHao would reject. These advisors could then desert Yuan SHao, leaving for Cao Cao. IN this case, then Cao might have turned the tables and won..

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At Shangfanggou, if there hadn't been the rain...

Unread postby Sima Hui » Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:25 pm

If Zhuge Liang had managed to kill Sima Yi at Shangfang and there had been no rain, what do you think would have happened?
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Unread postby Ts'ao Jian » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:53 pm

hmm... probably everything would be more or less the same, with Shu and then Wu falling, and the Jin still taking over Wei. (It was Sima Yi's descendents that did that, not him personally...). Actually, the Sima's might gain more influence because he would have given his life for Wei... kids immidiatly gain positions etc, ala Dian Wei's son and Guo Jia's son.
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