The "What If" Thread

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Unread postby Guan Zhi Sun of Guan Yu » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:03 am

Mr. Zhuge wrote:Here are more "What if" scenarios.

What if Ma Chao succeded at Tong Gate and countinued towards the capital and captured the capital and Cao Cao?

What if Zhuge Liang joined Sun Quan together with his brother instead of joining Liu Bei?

What if Liu Bei won at Yi Ling?

What if Cao Cao died after or during the alliance against Dong Zhuo?

What if Zhang Fei didn't stop the million-man army at the Chang Ban brigde?


If Ma Chao won at Tong Gate and went on to the capital and captured Cao Cao for one thing he would kill Cao Cao in a sec then another is that he could attack Hu Lao Gate from behind and win there and you probably would have seen Liu Bei surrender to Ma Chao if he lifted the Han Dynasty.

If Zhuge Liang joined Wu with his brother Zhuge Jin then Shu would have been smashed to bits and Zhou Yu wouldnt be as popular.

If Liu Bei won at Yi Ling then Zhuge Liang probably would have came to help Liu Bei and Wu would be in control of Shu.

If Cao Cao died at The Alliance of Dong Zhou then your Northern leader would have been probably Yuan Shao or Ma Teng.

If Zhang Fei didnt stop the Million man army at Chang Ban bridge then I think Cao Cao would have captured Liu Bei but would have released Liu Bei for his reputation. if you would have killed Liu Bei then many rebellions would have came in to perspective.
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Unread postby White Horse General » Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:18 pm

Wu Chun wrote:lu bu was destened to lose even listening to his advisors, to many people were against him and knew that he does not have the charisma to lead


I'd have to disagree with that. Lu Bu had many generals under him as it was; fairly good ones I'd assume seeing as Gao Shun alone beat Liu Bei and than Xiahou Dun right afterwards. Also he was the most feared man to face on the battlefield. Fear and name recognition played a big role in these close-quarters personal battles and at the time who can you honestly say was more feared than Lu Bu ( Several of Yuan Shao's generals were sent to pursue Lu Bu after he left Yuan Shao, but they refused to engage him out of fear )? It wouldn't be surprising for many to willingly follow Lu Bu rather than risk fighting him. If it weren't for Chen Gui, Lu Bu would have had a much more stable alliance with Yuan Shu as well; had he pulled that off I don't think Cao Cao could have beaten him when he did.

Which I suppose brings me to my speculation...What if Chen Gui and Chen Deng helped Lu Bu agaisnt Cao Cao rather than help Cao Cao agaisnt Lu Bu?
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Unread postby Guan Zhi Sun of Guan Yu » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:11 am

Another if Gongsun Zan was a little better leader.

If Ma Teng didnt die.
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Unread postby TaiShang » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:53 am

If Zhang Fei had been trampled underfoot by Cao Cao's army (if the bridge hadn't been destroyed, really - even a great warrior like Zhang Fei doesn't stand a chance against a million swords/bows/spears), then he would have been killed. Liu Bei would have been routed. It's impossible to say who of Liu Bei's force would have survived, but probably not very many.

That said, Cao Cao would probably have advanced into Jing and destroyed Liu Qi and Liu Cong. Zhuge Liang would still be a hermit, or maybe have gone to Zhuge Jin in Wu. Sun Quan wouldn't have stood a chance against Cao Cao and may have appealed to Liu Zhang or Ma Teng to aid him.
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:49 pm

Mr. Zhuge wrote:Here are more "What if" scenarios.

What if Ma Chao succeded at Tong Gate and countinued towards the capital and captured the capital and Cao Cao?

What if Zhuge Liang joined Sun Quan together with his brother instead of joining Liu Bei?

What if Liu Bei won at Yi Ling?

What if Cao Cao died after or during the alliance against Dong Zhuo?

What if Zhang Fei didn't stop the million-man army at the Chang Ban brigde?


If Ma Chao had won at Tong Gate, it would have been a Guan Du for Cao Cao. Liu Bei probably would have gone north and I suppose the Han would have been restored to influence.

Wu would be unstoppable. Zhou Yu would not have died, and he and Zhuge would dominate Wei. Shu would never have formed.

Wu would have been destroyed completely.

Yuan would have taken his place in the north, and Ma Teng in the west.

He didn't really need to stop them. Just knock the bridge down. But then, Zhang Fei wouldn't be the legend he is.

Another if Gongsun Zan was a little better leader.

If Ma Teng didnt die.


If Gongsun Zan had just fulfilled his potential and had a guide against Yuan, he could have ended the rebellion against the Han within ten years most likely. Ma Teng could have done the same with a decent team of advisors guiding him.

If Ma Teng did not die (ex. he escaped from Cao's trap), Shu would have been in a much better position, and after taking Cheng Du events would have been far different.
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Unread postby TheMightyXuHuang » Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:25 pm

Wu would have attacked wei and they would have been crushed

not much would change but there could also be a revoulution

Shu would have experienced victory
"
Weis victoury wouldnt have been delayed

Lu bus death would just have been delayed

Dian wei would've been known more as a warrior

Can't see much difference made here

Wei: Dead

Shu might have got to chang an or further

Ma Su would have got more chances at more battles leading to more mistakes

Wu: bye bye

More challenge for wei

they would have got defeted sooner or later
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Unread postby Frank » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:35 pm

Another thread I had was apparantly a duplicate version of this thread, so I'll repost that question here:

There's been something on my mind that I've been thinking about for a long while. What would have happened if He Jin didn't died on the night the Ten Eunuchs attempted kill him? And this also leads to another problem. Had He Jin lived, would Dong Zhuo ever come into power?
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Unread postby n06guy » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:18 pm

I think that if He Jin can be tricked and murdered by eunuchs, Dong Zhou wouldnt have a problem either.

If Ma Chao won Tong Gate, he'd go and take the capital, kill Cao Cao. That's all you can say, since he'd then be the most powerful man alive, and I dont know if he'd restore the Han, since, based on SGYY, he didnt fight for Han, but for his own self.

I dont know how well Zhuge Liang would do in Wu, having to share the spot light with Zhou Yu for a number of years, I suppose after Zhou Yu's death he'd do well, and Wu would have Lu Meng too. :)

There probably wouldnt be an alliance at all, and since the alliance was pretty much in name only...

If Cao Cao got past Zhang Fei, he'd capture Liu Bei, and probably execute him. He let the man free once, I'm sure he wouldnt do it again.
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Unread postby Frank » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:24 pm

I was thinking this, too. However, I find that Dong Zhuo would never get quite as good as an oppurtunity to steal away with the Emperor. Had He Jin been on guard with other soldiers, then Dong Zhuo would have a harder time. However, Dong Zhuo was asked by He Jin to aid him by guarding the Emperor, so Dong Zhuo was right there, within the Emperor's grasp. And, plus, there was so much craziness going on, when the Eunuch's guards and He Jin's men were fighting each other, Dong Zhuo could quite easily sneak out of there. But, if He Jin lived, how would he respond to Dong Zhuo's betrayal? Like say the Eunuchs were the only ones killed that night, He Jin accomplished his plans, and Dong Zhuo took the Emperor captive. What would occur then?
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Unread postby Vanman » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:26 pm

If He Jin had lived I doubt Dong Zhuo would have had the manpower to hold on to the Emperor for long. He Jin sends out a call to arms and Dong is hunted down like a dog.
If the above were to happen, I'd like to think Zhang Fei would end up killing him in the end thereby handing out some long overdue justice :twisted:
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