The "What If" Thread

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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:19 am

Are we talking novel or history?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:08 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Are we talking novel or history?

History.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:30 pm

ky9ersfan wrote:-What if Sun Jian had defeated Liu Biao in the battle for Jing? As in he never was lured into an ambush and killed. What do you think this would've done long term for the future of Wu?? Does he still go on conquest eastward and liberate Yang, from those unworthy of being a leader???

-What if Fa Zheng had lived longer, and went on Liu Bei's revenge campaign? Would this have prevented the fire attack at Yi Ling??How would this have changed things???

-What if Zhang Ren surrendered to Liu Bei, and joined him? Does he become a tiger general??


1) With Jing under control, Yuan Shu becomes very powerful and can now send Sun Jian against his many foes to the east. Yuan Shu's failings mean he is unlikely to rule the end but he stays in the game a lot longer. Wu is unlikely to be formed, Sun Jian is with a winning team and doesn't seem to have had that scale of ambition

2) I think Zhuge Liang was more hoping Fa Zheng would talk Liu Bei out of it but since Zhuge Liang's alternate plan was poor, I doubt that happens. Fa Zheng coming with, I'm not sure it changes anything. Liu Bei was a highly experienced and an able commander yet he didn't see the fire threat, most of Wu's officers also didn't see the fire opportunity so slim chance Fa Zheng does. Fa Zheng had been with Liu Bei on two very slow camapigns so he isn't the man to change Liu Bei's camapign into a more aggressive one that doesn't get dragged out

3) Unlikely. Ma Chao was in for political purposes, the other four were longer serving members. One would assume Zhang Ren would be used but hard to know how good he was as a general
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:30 pm

As always, thanks for your input Dong Zhou.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby wk123 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:41 pm

What if Cao Pi: 1) never competed with his brothers and 2) used his relatives in government.

How high could Cao Zhang and Cao Zhi have served?

My guesses: Cao Zhang as Regent Marshal, Cao Zhi as Minister of the Masses

Was Cao Zhi actually competent for administration or was he better left as a poet?
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:21 am

Cao Pi risks never getting the throne if he doesn't fight for it and that would have created chaos at Wei to go for a younger brother.

It is hard to know, Cao Zhi was clearly a very intelligent man but that and great literary talent isn't always enough to be a highly skilled minister. He was never tested on it.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:27 pm

2. Cao Pi saw it.

3. Ma Chao wasnt just in for 'political purposes'. Thats a gross oversimplication. He proved himself time and time again. In Cao Cao Guandu campaign, he led troops to reinforce Zhong Yao precarious position and personally fought on the frontlines with great valour. He did something almoat impossible by unifing the various feuding and disoriented warlords of Liang and Yong provinces which were made up of different ethnic groups. He was also able to successfully ambush Cao Cao and nearly killed him if not for Xu Chu martial valour. Finally, even though he was isolated and his power base was not secure, he was able to ambush Xiahou Yuan and rout him once. And theres also the fact that his fame spreaded throughout the Sichuan and Zhongyuan regions to the point that he us frequently described to be 'fierce' 'valaourous' 'strong' etc etc. Both Cao Cao and Liu Bei also clearly admired his abilities. Ma Chao presence also sped up the Chengdu siegeby striking fear into the common people, a siege that was lasting months IIRC. He was also considered to be Guan Yu and Zhang Fei equal so theres that.

Dont get me wrong. His prestige definitely helped. But at that point, the only general that deserved his rank would probably be only Huang Quan who already functioned as both a military advisor and an administrator.

Liu Feng too young and lacked experience. Wei Yan military career was much shorter. Neither of them also served as CICs like Ma Chao did in Xiliang various times
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:07 pm

When did I say Ma Chao was not skilled or hadn't earnt a reputation? Shu could not afford not to give Ma Chao such ranking so it is political, whether he was the right choice was a separate issue that I didn't try to go into. Nor did I say of the skill of the other four
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:28 pm

Thats a vague describtion of 'political purposes'. Using that logic, every appointment in the period was also because of 'political purposes'. Every appointment and promotion was because the promotor/leader 'could not afford not to' give them if you think about it. Anyway, Ma Chao did not get in because Liu Bei was forced to do so. He got in because he was a proven leader and commander. Thats it. Though his prestige definitely did help
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Fornadan » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:46 am

All appointments at the top level are primarily political. Merit is secondary.
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