The "What If" Thread

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Unread postby Fledgling Phoenix » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:58 pm

Sima Hui wrote:And that is why they died peaceful deaths, they weren't stupid enough to fight a futile battle.
Now what if a greater proportion of the later Cao clan and their associates had similar characteristics? Do you think it would have been possible to overcome the Simas with more a little more widespread support, even after Yi "locked" the Sima clan's power? I suspect that it would've given Zhuge Liang quite an opportunity.

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I'm also apologetic for being late in this response. I found the questions to be good thinkers.

Zhuge Kongmingx wrote:Ok, try "what if Sun Ce and Zhou Yu lived longer?

I would think that, as agreed previously, Jing would fall reletively quickly to Ce. Perhaps even territories north of Yang would also come. In the event that only Yu fulfulled a longer lifespan, I would guess that Jingzhou would've been taken much more hastily, if a little more violently, than in history. Again, perhaps what would become Wu might have expanded lightly toward the north.

"What if Sima Yi and Deng Ai died of ilness at a young age?"

Disregarding Ai at the moment, I smile at the thought of no Jin empire. Had Sima Yi died in his youth, I'm actually uncertain of whether or not Deng Ai would have a place in history.

"What if Zhou Tai did not save Sun Quan at Xuan?"

In contrast to my previous response, I dispise the thought of no Wu. I'm not sure anyone from the Sun clan succeeding Quan would be able to successfully hold the territory until after Cao's death.

"What if Yuan Shu surrendered to Lu Bu and Lu Bu opposed Cao Cao with all of Yuan Shu's troops?"

I'm of the persuasion that it would make little difference in the outcome. In the end, Lu Bu's fall was a product of the betrayal of his own underlings. Now had the use of Yuan Shu's troops influenced whether or not the Chens would act the way they did would make this response entirely different. But that's just speculation.

"What if Dian Wei lived at Wan?"

Aside from Cao feeling much more secure in future events, very little.

"What if Cao Ang lived at Wan?"

I believe this question is much more valid that the previous. Had Ang succeeded Cao Cao, there's no telling what events may have happened between the three kingdoms. I'm also not sure what to accurately make of Cao Ang. From what I've heard of him, I think he would steer Wei in a bit different of a direction than Pi. I can't view Ang usurping the emperorship as Pi did, either.

"What if Guan Yu lived at Fan, and Lu Meng never took Jingzhou?"

I think the only effect this would've given is a swap in which Wu and Shu would've surrended first.

"What if when Zhong Hui rebelled with Jiang Wei, they were not killed and attacked Wei/Jin with Wu?"

This is another really good one. I can see Shu making another appearance in power. Perhaps this would've given reason to oust Liu Chan in the event of, though I disagree that it was probable, given the loyalties of Shu officers.

"What if all 5 tigers lived longer?"

That would include Guan Yu. Although I don't particularly favor this idea, I think it would end with the same result as two what ifs ago.

"What if Kongming did not perish at Wuzhang?"

I would suspect that he'd lead another campaign. Whether or not it would successful would still, I believe, give Jiang Wei a bit of boost and better experience for all his future campaigns.

"What if Wu won at He Fei?"

I'd only like to say that it was wishful thinking on my part.

Mod Edit: Posts combined. Please try and not double-post. Have a nice day! -SH
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Unread postby barbarosso » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:14 pm

What if Lui Bei toke Zhuge Liang wth him on his attack at Yi Ling, instead of the other guy(you know the guy who drew the maps and toke them to zhuge), would lu Xun have got away with his life? or attempted some other scheme?
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Unread postby Frank » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:12 pm

Then that would be one completely different battle. Oh yeah, Liu Bei would definitely win.
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Unread postby Zhuge Zhao » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:16 pm

barbarosso wrote:What if Lui Bei toke Zhuge Liang wth him on his attack at Yi Ling, instead of the other guy(you know the guy who drew the maps and toke them to zhuge), would lu Xun have got away with his life? or attempted some other scheme?


I believe that the outcome would be something different, I would also say that Lord Xuande may have won the battle and retake Jingzhou.
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Unread postby Fledgling Phoenix » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:34 am

If I'm remembering correctly, didn't Zhuge Liang advise against attacking Yi Ling numberous times? Perhaps he himself thought it was futile. It would've definately been a completely different battle, as one of Lu Xun's greastest strengths was his analysis of character. Surely the tactics would've been different. I'm also not so sure Shu would've come out on top. My vote goes toward a Lu Xun victory.

Also, extending Kongming to the southeast would've given Wei a great opportunity to attack Shu, would it have not?
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Unread postby Frank » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:27 am

After re-reading the novel, more specifically, I read Yi Ling yesterday, I know that you are right. Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun were highly against attacking Wu. They advised attacking against Wei, but Liu Bei would not have it. But, in this scenario, Zhuge Liang is completely for the attack, and was with Liu Bei. If that was the case, then Liu Bei would have been victorious.
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Unread postby Rommel » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:57 pm

Zhuge Liang wasn't god. His presence didn't guarantee a victory. Lu Xun was a great leader in 3k period too. He defeated Liu Bei based on battlefield situation not because of absence of ZGL. If ZGL was there and advised Liu Bei of different strategy I believe that Lu Xun & Wu's generals would apply different tactics to confront Shu's army. ZGL's presence only raised up Shu's winning percentage and gave Shu the equal chance to win the battle as Wu's. It didn't guarantee a sure win for Shu.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:04 pm

I think that Lui Bei would have won but won't get the opportunity to finish off Wu because Wei would definatly attack and cause Zhuge and co to race home to fend of this attack
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Unread postby Rommel » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:24 pm

barbarosso wrote:I think that Lui Bei would have won but won't get the opportunity to finish off Wu because Wei would definatly attack and cause Zhuge and co to race home to fend of this attack


What is your basis of Shu's victory? It is amazing to see people viewing Zhuge Liang as battlefield winning god. As I said that his presence undoubtedly boosted Shu's winning chance but didn't guarantee a definite victory because a battle is designed/planned and conducted/executed based on battlefield's situation such as terrain, weather, personnels, and army status not based on a book description.

Lu Xun was a energetic capable general I believe that battle of YiLing might be a long one if ZGL was there but it is UNCERTAIN which side would prevail. If I remember correctly Sun Quan allied Wei when Shu initiated its attack on Wu. If ZGL left his post for YiLing Wei would definitely consider a attack on Han Zhong. We are talking about 3k here there was no airplane to take ZGL back to the northern border in a short time (it might take more than one month for him to travel). Shu would be in deep trouble when fighting on two fronts.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:47 pm

Rommel wrote:What is your basis of Shu's victory? It is amazing to see people viewing Zhuge Liang as battlefield winning god. As I said that his presence undoubtedly boosted Shu's winning chance but didn't guarantee a definite victory .


But according to the book he was a intelligente general, who would have seen this fire attack coming,(lu xun even admits this himself) and avoid it

Rommel wrote: If ZGL left his post for YiLing Wei would definitely consider a attack on Han Zhong. We are talking about 3k here there was no airplane to take ZGL back to the northern border in a short time (it might take more than one month for him to travel). Shu would be in deep trouble when fighting on two fronts.


I was actually agreeing with you on thsi point, i would be impossible for Zhuge to return back on such short notice
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