The "What If" Thread

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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Han » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:01 pm

Elitemsh wrote:
Han wrote:It goes both ways. Personalities aside, would you deny he was held in extremely high regard by pretty much everyone that comment on his generalship skill and martial prowess? Thoroughly outnumbered excluding his fight against Cao Cao. His loss to Xiahou Yuan was ultimately because Xiahou Yuan massacred the ethnic minorities and Ma Chao was surrounded at all sides with no secure power base. Lü Meng also didnt fight at Jing but the destruction of Guan Yu is credited to him. Ma Chao presence sped up the fall of Chengdu. He should receive some credit for this. At Hanzhong he had no [recorded] accomplishment. Not caring about rank? Come on thats silly and you know it. Prestige and status mattered alot in Han China. Huang Zhong fought for less than a decade. And Zhao Yun wasnt even acknowledged as a proper general or given a nobility rank even AFTER Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han. Wei Yan died to late and was never CIC other than that time he sneaked behind to buy horses and encounter Wei forces on his way back.

Ma Chao had ability for sure and some impressive accomplishments when he was independent. Ma Chao may have sped up the fall of Cheng Du but it's debatable how much since at that time Liu Bei already had the place surrounded. A small amount of credit because bottom line is he didn't fight. Huang Zhong, Zhang Fei Zhao Yun, even Liu Feng deserve much more credit as far as I'm concerned because they risked tooth and nail fighting at the front. I don't place as much emphasis on rank as you do. Huang Zhong fought very bravely for Liu Bei in his two major campaigns, Zhao Yun stuck with him in some of the most miserable times for Liu Bei. Saving his wife and son during the most horrible defeat, helping governing Jing for years, conquering territories during Yi campaign, publically suggesting good proposals, protecting Han Zhong. Obviously I don't need to talk about Guan and Zhang's contributions. Ma Chao shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath when it comes to Shu generals. Liu Bei was just the last guy he sought refuge under. Wei Yan did fight at Yi and governed Han Zhong setting up that solid defence system. Far more than Ma Chao for Shu. Ma Chao wasn't really a Shu general that's why I say he doesn't deserve his place there.

Surrounded for more than 1 year btw. And they were still holding on. And Lü Meng never fought on the front lines against Guan Yu so he doesnt deserve credit? :wink: The fact that Ma Chao sped up Liu Zhang surrender means that many troops and civillians from both sides would be spared from further bloodshed. Also, Liu Bei would have the opportunity to quicky consolidate his gains in case of further attack from Cao Cao and Zhang Lu. Governence and domestic advice are not good ways or reasonings to judge generalship. Funny thing is both Guan Yu and Huang Zhong were never Shu generals in the first place. Most of Liu Bei early followers were not Shu Han generals too. Also, neither me nor your opinions really matter. What matters is Liu Bei thoughts.

And the fact is, Zhao Yun was never made an official general. Most of his titles before Zhuge Liang rise was randomly made ranks created by Liu Bei out of thin air. Heck even after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han, Zhao Yun was never acknowledged as a noble. Not even a 'Gate marquis'. This shows that Zhao Yun was never considered the equal of Ma Chao and Zhang Fei who were both given the highest honours in Liu Bei army after Liu Bei became Emperor of Shu Han.

And frankly speaking, ranks, titles, prestige etc etc were serious business back then AFAIK. You shouldnt just dismiss it so casually.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Han wrote:

Thats false. I dont even know what HR or court anger means. The only time ranks are given for sending signals are the domestic ones. Military ranks not so as those came with actually power[mostly]. The only exception in Liu Bei camp was Mi Zhu AFAIK.

That defectors got high ranks including military? It was a common practise. HR is human resources and in essence means people management, court anger is when a miliatry figure needs to stem court criticism so takes a rank hit.

We do know actually. According to Ma Chao SGZ. SGZ quote

'Your martial prowess is famed throughout this age'.

We know what Liu Bei said in public proclamations as part of his political and HR management of the Ma Chao situation. He was not going to say, under the circumstances, "and your record is a bit hit and miss, I don't trust you". Liu Bei was going to big up what was a star addition and send a message, like the rank, to Ma's supporters, to Wei and to the Qiang. That is different from his actual views

Because the 5 Tigers is a ROTK thing and not a historical thing. IIRC the award thing came after the conquest of Sichuan when the four are given the ranks of North,Left,Right and Rear. In history these 4 generals were also given the same rank and at the same time. And eventually these 4 generals were also posthumously honoured which I mentioned below already.

And these 4 plus Zhao Yun were known as the 5 Tigers because of their historical fame, ranking[ occupy same section] and fictional embellishment

Fair enough, I see where your coming from
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