The "What If" Thread

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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Mitsunari » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:31 am

chinesecannibal wrote:What if Emperor Shao IS Sima Yan reincarnated? God is fair, and he rewards the innocent and honest one way or another. To recall, Emperor Shao is the true Emperor of the Han, not Emperor Xian. Dong Zhuo poisoned Emperor Shao because Shao was too kind and timid, a mark of a true ruler given by God Himself.
So Sima Yan ultimately was given the kingdom that was rightfully his in the first place. And he got to live the rest of his life filled with food and women without much care.

You want proof?! Here's your proof!

Same hair cut! Same face! Besides the color, even the clothing is the same!


Filled with food and women, hahahaha, brilliant. Add a PS4 in there, and that's any man set for life. :lol:

Anyhoo, what if...

...Liu Xuande used his charming tongue once too often, and got himself executed by, say, Yuan Shao? What if Yuan Benchu actually acted decisively and had the big-eared one killed for his transparently traitorous ways?

What would that imply for history, thereafter?
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:53 am

Mitsunari wrote:
chinesecannibal wrote:What if Emperor Shao IS Sima Yan reincarnated? God is fair, and he rewards the innocent and honest one way or another. To recall, Emperor Shao is the true Emperor of the Han, not Emperor Xian. Dong Zhuo poisoned Emperor Shao because Shao was too kind and timid, a mark of a true ruler given by God Himself.
So Sima Yan ultimately was given the kingdom that was rightfully his in the first place. And he got to live the rest of his life filled with food and women without much care.

You want proof?! Here's your proof!

Same hair cut! Same face! Besides the color, even the clothing is the same!


Filled with food and women, hahahaha, brilliant. Add a PS4 in there, and that's any man set for life. :lol:

Anyhoo, what if...

...Liu Xuande used his charming tongue once too often, and got himself executed by, say, Yuan Shao? What if Yuan Benchu actually acted decisively and had the big-eared one killed for his transparently traitorous ways?

What would that imply for history, thereafter?


In my humble opinion, Yuan Shao furiously executes Liu Bei for failing to pincer Cao Cao's forces while in Ru Nan along with Zhang Fei who was too busy guzzling wine to resist :P

Then Yuan Shao launches his invasion but still loses due to betrayal from within (Xu You, Zhang He, and others defecting)
Guan Yu distraught over Liu Bei and Zhang Fei's deaths pledges his service to Cao Cao and preforms feats similar in quality to Zhang Liao and Yue Jin during the years it takes to conquer the north.
Then in 207 Cao Cao sends Xiahou Dun, Yu Jin, and Li Dian to strike at Liu Biao and they successfully take Xin Ye as Liu Bei isn't there to drive them away. They then hold their position until Cao Cao arrives with the main army leading to Liu Cong's surrender.
Sun Quan while a bit nervous about being alone in resisting Cao Cao (as pretty much everyone else in the empire is allied to Cao Cao at this point) nevertheless listens to Zhou Yu and resists leading to a victory against Cao Cao at Chi Bi. (despite Liu Bei helping with the initial victory against the first wave of Cao Cao's forces I still believe Wu would have won alone anyway as the plague still would have occurred)
Sun Quan sends Zhou Yu to conquer Jing and after a year takes over Jiang Ling. Soon after Zhou Yu also defeats the four southern lords (token resistance then surrender just like they did with Liu Bei) claiming all of southern Jing. Zhou Yu then dies causing Sun Quan to go on the defensive.
Liu Zhang breaks off his good will with Cao Cao due to Zhang Song's advice and forms an alliance with Sun Quan to secure his eastern boarder so he can concentrate on Zhang Lu in Han Zhong, cause despite having pretty much every advantage over Zhang Lu, Liu Zhang stinks at warfare.
Sun Quan plans on sending Lu Meng to invade Liu Zhang but before he can properly do so Cao Cao sends a massive army to invade the Yang province which he manages to push back mainly due to food shortages in the Northern Army.
Sun Quan eventually sends an army against Liu Zhang but is bogged down in the defensive fortifications of the Yi province. While having the advantage progress is slow.
Meanwhile Ma Chao is defeated up north and flees to Zhang Lu, Cao Cao invades Han Zhong and defeats Ma Chao again sending him fleeing to Liu Zhang while Pang De surrenders along with Zhang Lu.
Seeing Yi being slowly conquered by Sun Quan Cao Cao demands Liu Zhang's surrender and offers protection to which Liu Zhang accepts.
Cao Cao sends Zhang He and Xiahou Yuan into Yi with a large army joining with the local defenders and pushes Lu Meng's army out.
Both sides withdraw their armies and over the next few years send small invasions at each other which don't accomplish much.
Eventually Cao Cao gathers his armies together and leads a three front invasion of Sun Quan's lands. One army out of Yi, another out of Xiang Yang both going after Jiang Ling, and one out of Shou Chun heading against the heart of Yang.
The naval invasion fails and that army is driven away, however Jiang Ling is overwhelmed by the forces of Xu Huang, Guan Yu, Wu Yi, and Li Yan. The rest of Jing follows shortly after.
After the capture of Jing Cao Cao dies and Cao Pi forms the Wei Empire and accepts a peace agreement with Sun Quan who keeps delaying sending his son over to Wei. He soon rebels and launches a two prong offensive to retake Jing from Yang and Jiao, initially gaining some success but is eventually driven back after Lu Meng passes away. Cao Pi launches a counter attack regaining his territory in Jing and causing Jiao to fall. Finally surrounded Sun Quan's forces are overwhelmed from attacks from too many directions and Wu falls.

Thus thanks to Liu Bei's death in the year 200, the newly formed Wei empire unites the land in the early 220s. Thus proving that Liu Bei was vital to any attempted resistance against Wei :lol: :P
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:05 am

Mitsunari wrote:Anyhoo, what if...

...Liu Xuande used his charming tongue once too often, and got himself executed by, say, Yuan Shao? What if Yuan Benchu actually acted decisively and had the big-eared one killed for his transparently traitorous ways?

What would that imply for history, thereafter?


Y'know, I don't think it changes much, at least not immediately. Depends a bit on when it happens. But Liu Bei never really had any firm footing or a dependable home base early on that would have created a tremendous vacuum as a result of his execution/assassination by Yuan Shao. What definitely happens...

- His faction basically collapses; no one is going to pick up where he left off
- Wei eventually absorbs his faction; I think once the dust settled in Cao vs Yuan and Cao came out on top, people like the Mi and Chen clans and so on would eventually side with him as he would represent stability...one alternative is that the Cao/Yuan conflict and/or Xu upheaval drives most of them to flee down to Wu/Jing and settle there

The real shake-up is Chibi, and that's far enough down the pipe that it's anyone's guess what could happen. If most everything plays out the same, one out-there scenario would be that Sun Quan sees no point in resisting and Cao Cao unites the country. Otherwise, he does decide to resist, things play out more or less as they did, but Wu is able to consolidate southern Jing far more quickly than in history, and possibly pose more of an overall threat. Wu probably goes on to make a power grab for Yi, as well as Wei, and whatever ends up going down there determines how Wei and Wu are positioned (i.e., equals, or greater/lesser kingdoms).

Sorry if it seems to gloss over things a bit, but Liu Bei hadn't quite become the influential leader he was destined to be just yet. What Ifs around that particular period are a lot more speculative if Liu Bei gets opportunities to thrive, rather than kick the bucket. :lol:
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Mitsunari » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:44 pm

I appreciate your replies, brothers; excellent points, with both arriving at pretty much the same conclusion - Wei dominationnnnnnnn... :lol:

In that scenario, what with no '3 Kingdoms' era, there would have been very little for anyone to actually write about...such a travesty doesn't bear thinking about.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:09 am

What if Ma Chao, Ma Dai, and Pang De had joined Liu Zhang instead Zhang Lu. Resulting in the recapture of Han Zhong for the Liu Zhang's forces much earlier? Resulting in Liu Bei having no pretext excuse to come into Yi with his forces, inorder to defeat Zhang Lu at Han Zhong.

What if Yuan Shu was smarter, and had never declared himself emperor, and instead used his wealth to ally with Sun Ce, Liu Bei, and Lu Bu? Forming an anti-Cao Cao coalition?

What if Zhuge Liang had used Li Yan as an expandable commander at Jie Teng instead? With Ma Su, and Wang Ping as his liutenants??
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:59 am

I imagine if Yuan Shu, hadn't self proclaimed himself as emperor, and formed an Anti Cao Cao Coalition, he probably would've succeeded.

I imagine Liu Bei would've still taken Yi Province, eventually, but it would've probably taken him an extra year, since he wouldn't had been behind enemy lines. He needed another territory besides Jing province, so he would've eventually had no choice but to invade the western china territory.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:32 am

1) Not sure how they would have got to Liu Zhang through Hanzhong though. I can't see Ma Chao and Liu Zhang getting on, it could lead to further internal problems and yes, Liu Zhang might last another year of a long seige at Cheng Du.

2) why would they all agree to that alliance? Not declaring himself emperor would have helped but given he couldn't take Xu from Liu Bei and his over-expenditure, I doubt he could win overall. Just survive longer

3) Ma Su, now not having a mental breakdown, might prove useful and have a long career though his cowardice will probably curtail at some point. Li Yan holds off Zhang He but defeat of Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi forces a Shu retreat anyway
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:10 pm

You guys are awesome, thinks for sharing your insightful opinions.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:13 pm

To elaborate on the topic, I think that Sun Ce and Liu Bei would never had allied with Yuan Shu ever, but if in some hypothetical magic dimension this some how came true, Cao Cao I don't think would be able to hold off Yuan Shao, Liu Bei, Yuan Shu, Sun Ce, and Lu Bu.

oh and for the last thing about Li Yan, I think the northern campaigns wouldn't have worked mainly because Shu would've eventually messed up some how. I think Ma Su would've still had a break down , somewhere else down the road. Liu Bei mentioned his words, out do his actions or something along those lines. Basically saying he was all talk. Probably a good domestic officer, and Zhuge Liang probably loved him because he was Ma Liangs younger brother, who was Zhuge's sworn brother, therefore technically making Ma su his sworn younger brother, and eventually giving him a heavy responsibility task, in which he ultimately would've mentally broken down again.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:24 am

I didn't add Yuan Shao, because he was Cao's previous ally, and would've been busy on the side, taking care of Gongsun Zan at the time.

But I was thinking along the lines of, Yuan Shu learning from his previous losses to Cao Cao. Yuan Shu being smarter, and taking a page out of Cao Cao's playbook by forming a coalition against a bigger force, full of talent.

With Liu Bei, hostilities didn't commence right away in Xu province, so there was atleast a chance that they could've allied. Strength in numbers, the enemy of my enemy, can sometimes be a friend. They were mutual enemies of Cao Cao, and an alliance would've been mutually beneficial, and also solidified Liu Bei as governor in Xu.
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