The "What If" Thread

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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 am

Lord_Cao_Cao wrote:Who's to say that Bo Cai wouldn't manage kill Huangfu Song or Zhu Jun somehow had Cao Cao not arrived with reinforcements? Or what if Jian Shuo's executed uncle had some sort of impact if Cao Cao didn't execute him? Or the Three Excellencies that were dismissed due to Cao Cao's memorial? What if some sort of huge menace had emerged in Ji'nan if Cao Cao hadn't brought order back into the area after defeating Peng Tuo? :mrgreen:

You can't really answer these types of questions properly in my opinion. There's too much to be considered.


Yeah that's all true and fair, and a number of the what if questions that get posted on here get hit by the butterfly effect - i.e., if Bo Cao kills Zhu Jun then the Yellow Turbans win, and then A, and then B, and then C, and suddenly we are all speaking Chinese today. And totally eliminating someone so influential is a doozy, we might as well be talking about an entirely alternate reality where red is blue and down is up.

Having said that, it's kind of a bummer of an answer, and by working with generalities (such as the subdued long-term impact of the various YT/rebel remnants, Han's fading power, Yuan Shao's thirst for power), we can at least carve out a sort of simplistic outline, yeah?

Aside for greencactaur: This is an old thread about how Cao Cao's absence would impact things. Might be worth a look for you.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:45 am

Also without Cao Cao covering Yuan Shao's rear Yuan Shu and allies might well make more progress against Yuan Shao...

DragonAtma wrote:...sometime we should make a list of who was on which side for which times in the Yuan Shao vs Yuan Shu war, including the minor forces.


Yes please. :D
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:05 am

Zyzyfer wrote:
Lord_Cao_Cao wrote:Who's to say that Bo Cai wouldn't manage kill Huangfu Song or Zhu Jun somehow had Cao Cao not arrived with reinforcements? Or what if Jian Shuo's executed uncle had some sort of impact if Cao Cao didn't execute him? Or the Three Excellencies that were dismissed due to Cao Cao's memorial? What if some sort of huge menace had emerged in Ji'nan if Cao Cao hadn't brought order back into the area after defeating Peng Tuo? :mrgreen:

You can't really answer these types of questions properly in my opinion. There's too much to be considered.


Yeah that's all true and fair, and a number of the what if questions that get posted on here get hit by the butterfly effect - i.e., if Bo Cao kills Zhu Jun then the Yellow Turbans win, and then A, and then B, and then C, and suddenly we are all speaking Chinese today. And totally eliminating someone so influential is a doozy, we might as well be talking about an entirely alternate reality where red is blue and down is up.

Having said that, it's kind of a bummer of an answer, and by working with generalities (such as the subdued long-term impact of the various YT/rebel remnants, Han's fading power, Yuan Shao's thirst for power), we can at least carve out a sort of simplistic outline, yeah?

Aside for greencactaur: This is an old thread about how Cao Cao's absence would impact things. Might be worth a look for you.

Sums it up pretty much. It's easier to work with "What if X/Y died at this or that point" than "What if X/Y didn't exist at all" as well.

Wasn't there some sort of project with a lot of other people for RoTK XI with the three main rulers and their offspring not existing? A shame nothing came out of it in the end. :lol:
EDIT: Ah found it, it was your idea after all, good times. :D
viewtopic.php?p=570581#p570581
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:17 am

Lord_Cao_Cao wrote:Wasn't there some sort of project with a lot of other people for RoTK XI with the three main rulers and their offspring not existing? A shame nothing came out of it in the end. :lol:
EDIT: Ah found it, it was your idea after all, good times. :D
viewtopic.php?p=570581#p570581


Yup, busted.

Amazing that that discussion took place four years ago. I'm not usually one to question where the time went, but I will in this case. That topic seemed much more recent, and also went much more in-depth than I remembered. Maybe I'll revisit the concept if XIII fails to draw in the remaining XI players...

edit: I actually recall that I considered asking the question here, but was reluctant to do so because of this sub-forum's purpose.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:26 am

What if Lu Bu never betrayed Liu Bei, and ended up a loyal general under him? I know this would NEVER happen, but what do you guys think would happen in this hypothetical situation? :shock: :shock:
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Guan Gong » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:50 am

greencactaur wrote:What if Lu Bu never betrayed Liu Bei, and ended up a loyal general under him? I know this would NEVER happen, but what do you guys think would happen in this hypothetical situation? :shock: :shock:


That, for me, creates a minimum of two hypothetical situations.

1. Lu Bu ends up a general, loyal at first, but then his old habits rear themselves and he betrays Liu Bei at some point. Depending on where Liu Bei is, territory-wise, what manner of chaos does this create?
2. Lu Bu ends up a general under Liu Bei, and remains loyal. How much does having him aid/hinder Liu Bei's cause.

Greencactaur, apologies if it seems like I've hijacked your questions, they just created these thoughts in my head.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:38 pm

No worries, those are the type of responses I want :P. Hypothetical situations, and what could happen really interest me.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby plunged » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:44 am

What if He Jin had somehow survived the eunuch's assassination? Surely they would've all been executed afterwards, and Lady He and He Miao would not be on their side anymore, so the He's would be one clan again, with Shao in the throne. Also Yuan Shao was already a powerful ally of him, but I don't know how reliable their relationship was
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:52 pm

He Jin reached his position by luck, not skill. He was raised to become a butcher, and as such had no training for leading armies or running politics. He did nothing when correspondence between the eunuchs and the yellow turbans were found. He rejected Yuan Shao's plan to remove the eunuchs. He refused Yuan Shao's request for permission to arrest the eunuchs. He dilly-dallied when he heard about Jian Shuo's plan to kill him. He ignored Chen Lin's advice that summoning Dong Zhuo was a disastrous idea. He let the eunuch battle split him apart form his stepbrother and sister. Fianlly, he fell for the eunuchs' trap to ambush and kill him.

Even if he evaded their plot and managed to kill all the top eunuchs, something else would topple him, as he was waaaaaay out of his league.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Jolt » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:57 am

greencactaur wrote:What if Lu Bu never betrayed Liu Bei, and ended up a loyal general under him? I know this would NEVER happen, but what do you guys think would happen in this hypothetical situation? :shock: :shock:


Part of the problem is that, when he arrived at Liu Bei's Xu, Lu Bu had far more prestige and influence, (even though he had, to our knowledge no clan contacts that other families had) than Liu Bei did, and just as importantly, his own army and officer corps. Lu Bu was the one that killed the tyrant and restored the Han, and fought to defend it. Liu Bei? Liu Bei was just some ambitious general turned regional warlord, who was handed his authority from Tao Qian, not from the Han Court or the Anti-Dong Zhuo coalition.

As long as Lu Bu remained a guest of Liu Bei, he would always be an autonomous lieutenant and informal co-ruler of his. That's part of the reason why Liu Bei treated Lu Bu with such deferrence. As such, any move that Liu Bei wanted to take would have to have the assent of Lu Bu. Bypassing him meant the risk of what happened in real life: Lu Bu taking whatever powerbase Liu Bei had.

This informal duocracy would have made for a very innefficient way to govern, and extreme vulnerable to outside machinations and plots, due to the mutual suspicions that would (and did) innevitably arise.

Eventually, Cao Cao would turn Liu Bei against Lu Bu, and vice-versa, just like he did with the Yuan brothers or with Ma Chao/Han Sui, and end up conquering Xu. Sun Ce was pro-Cao, and Liu Bei couldn't count on any physical support by Yuan Shao, so he would be hemmed in.
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