Lady Wu wrote: you can enjoy your anti-Wu smugness until mid January
Lady Wu wrote:So... if your claim that Sun Quan's ambition was to be history's biggest weasel wasn't in jest, let's hear some supporting evidence
Lady Wu wrote:The question posed at the beginning of the thread is whether Sun Quan had a clear goal in mind to pursue, and what his level of ambition was.
jiuwan wrote: You can beat me up all you want with your near limitless knowledge,
Ok, time to be serious in this thread. I don't think Sun Quan had a clear goal set in mind from early on when he inherited the lands from Sun Ce. As his powers grew and his position solidified, his ambitions started growing.
This is evident in his desires to claim Jing Zhou. After all, how can he legitimately claim the whole of Jing Zhou when he never laid soldiers to take the whole province.
Lady Wu wrote:"Limitless knowledge"... it's beginning to sound like Lu Xun's plot to make Guan Yu lower his defences (by heaping praises on him)... But I shall not let my guard down! Increase the troops on the Western border!
Lady Wu wrote:Consider this from Sun Quan's SGZ bio. When Sun Ce died, people weren't sure whether to stick with Purple-Beard Boy or not. However:
"Zhang Zhao and Zhou Yu, among others, said that Sun Quan was someone who one can support to accomplish the great ambition, and thus they set their hearts upon serving him."
Lady Wu wrote:Since when did Sun Quan overtly claimed the whole of Jing Province?
Lady Wu wrote:Well, Zhou Yu died, and seeing that expanding to the west wouldn't work, and Liu Bei was all desperate begging for some useful land, Sun Quan lent Jiangling to Liu Bei, but Liu Bei never returned it.
Lady Wu wrote:That was not a problem at first because Liu Bei was still weak and Quan was focussed on fighting Cao Cao. However, once Liu Bei secured Hanzhong, the balance was struck and thus it's only natural for Shu to return the borrowed land.
Lady Wu wrote:Then there was Guan Yu's accomplishments, which made Shu so strong that Cao Cao wanted to move the capital city in order to be farther away from Guan Yu. If even Cao Cao was thinking that, Guan Yu's forces in Jing must have been really strong, making Shu almost equal to Wei in power.
Lady Wu wrote:Who's to say that Shu wouldn't take advantage and attack Wu, given that Guan Yu was nicely located upriver from Wu?
Lady Wu wrote:Hence the marriage proposal. But Wu didn't really figure as an ally in Guan Yu's mind, and Guan Yu turned it down rudely.
Lady Wu wrote:Seeing that Guan Yu couldn't be counted on as an ally, and seeing what a threat he's become, there was no choice but to take him out. Wu was extremely vulnerable without the security of the northwest of Jing.
Lady Wu wrote:Gah! I didn't mean to defend the Jing Province question... what I wanted to say was just that Sun Quan did have bold ambitions. That's it.
jiuwan wrote:Consider also this from Lady Wu's (not you, Sun Quan's mother) bio: [...] And also in Zhang Zhao's bio: [...]
Now in both Lady Wu's bio and Zhang Zhao's bios we see that Zhang Zhao is entrusted to care for Sun Quan and the affairs of the state after Lady Wu's death.
So Zhang Zhao may or may not entirely support Sun Quan as someone who is ambitious and could achieve great things. There is no question that Zhang Zhao served loyally to Quan despite the shabby treatment. That is why I have more respect for Zi Bu than Sun Quan.
Yet in Lu Su's bio, the Wu historians seemed to think that they owned all of Jing zhou.
When did Sun Quan ask for Jiang Ling back? After Liu Bei had gotten control of Yi zhou, Sun Quan asked for Chang Sha, Gui Yang, and Ling Ling. Liu Bei denied this request. Afterwards, Sun Quan sent troops to take the three commanderies (215). Again in 219 he struck Guan Yu in the rear to gain more lands.
It is not necessarily that Cao Cao wanted to move his captial due to Guan Yu's forces being strong and rivalling Wei in terms of power. On Guan Yu's attack on Fan, if he were to succeed he would have very easily access to the captial. That is why Cao Cao contemplated on moving his capital.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but I've seen this over and over again, yet no one has proven to me how Guan Yu was a threat to Wu. Despite this lack of evidence, Wuist still say Guan Yu was a threat to Wu. So all I have to say to this is: prove it.
It's ok, I didn't mean to defend the Jing province in Shu's stead either. So if you want to ignore everything I typed, I'll understand.
BTW, can I change my stance on Sun Quan? I should give more credit to him on his ambitions.
These last few days of digging through Wu bios, I discovered I should give more credit to the "weasel"
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