Xiahou Ba!

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Unread postby Mikhail » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:00 am

I've recently began liking Xiahou Ba. To tell you the truth, I didn't know much about him until I finished the RotK TV Series and I found him to be quite the cool character.

I think he had a right to defect to Shu. With all the instability happening at Wei and the fact that his family was being seized and killed means that he had a very good reason. He was a servant of Wei and everything that his father help create and not the shadow of the former empire that his dad died for.

I also applaud him for giving his all to Shu as well. He could have just been an average official, but instead he worked as hard as he could in his new position. The fact that he was friends with Jiang Wei makes him THAT MUCH BETTER!
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Unread postby Guan Gong » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:13 am

Kong Wen wrote:Well, I don't really recall what happened to Xiahou Shang, Xiahou De, Xiahou Wei, Xiahou Hui, Xiahou He, Xiahou Xuan, or Xiahou Ling. But they were all of Xiahou Ba's generation (or later, in some cases). It's clear that there were still some offshoots of the Xiahou clan floating around, but, as I said before, I'm not sure how important they were.

Old thread yes, but wasn't Xiahou Xuan killed when he tried to assisinate Sima Shi, on the orders of Cao Fang?
Xiahou De was fictional.
Xiahou Wei died of illness, I think.
There was also Xiahou Xian, who I believed served Wei around that time. I think I read somewhere he was another son of Xiahou Shang.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:32 am

Corgan wrote:I also applaud him for giving his all to Shu as well. He could have just been an average official, but instead he worked as hard as he could in his new position. The fact that he was friends with Jiang Wei makes him THAT MUCH BETTER!


Whoa, first thread I ever made!

Anyway, I wonder how enthusiastic Xiahou Ba would have been with the idea of Wei being destroyed by Jiang Wei. Ba only defected so that he could get his revenge upon the Sima family. There's no evidence to suggest that he wanted to disestablish Wei and restore the Han. Quite a conflict of interests there. So can Xiahou Ba really be considered a loyal officer of Shu?
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Unread postby Mikhail » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:43 am

Sima Hui wrote:
Corgan wrote:I also applaud him for giving his all to Shu as well. He could have just been an average official, but instead he worked as hard as he could in his new position. The fact that he was friends with Jiang Wei makes him THAT MUCH BETTER!


Whoa, first thread I ever made!

Anyway, I wonder how enthusiastic Xiahou Ba would have been with the idea of Wei being destroyed by Jiang Wei. Ba only defected so that he could get his revenge upon the Sima family. There's no evidence to suggest that he wanted to disestablish Wei and restore the Han. Quite a conflict of interests there. So can Xiahou Ba really be considered a loyal officer of Shu?


Well, I regard him an as a military officer, and a good one at that. Loyalty shouldn't even matter as long he gets his job done for the force he serves for, which to an effect, he did. If he did participate in the destruction of Wei, he'll probably end up vouching for the members of his family and prevent them from being killed, as well as those in the lesser degree Cao families. Liu Shan wasn't ruthless and he was married to a Xiahou.

Btw, this is an awesome topic to be your first!
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:33 pm

Corgan wrote:
Sima Hui wrote:
Corgan wrote:I also applaud him for giving his all to Shu as well. He could have just been an average official, but instead he worked as hard as he could in his new position. The fact that he was friends with Jiang Wei makes him THAT MUCH BETTER!


Whoa, first thread I ever made!

Anyway, I wonder how enthusiastic Xiahou Ba would have been with the idea of Wei being destroyed by Jiang Wei. Ba only defected so that he could get his revenge upon the Sima family. There's no evidence to suggest that he wanted to disestablish Wei and restore the Han. Quite a conflict of interests there. So can Xiahou Ba really be considered a loyal officer of Shu?


Well, I regard him an as a military officer, and a good one at that. Loyalty shouldn't even matter as long he gets his job done for the force he serves for, which to an effect, he did. If he did participate in the destruction of Wei, he'll probably end up vouching for the members of his family and prevent them from being killed, as well as those in the lesser degree Cao families. Liu Shan wasn't ruthless and he was married to a Xiahou.

Btw, this is an awesome topic to be your first!


Thanks! I actually joined just to talk about Xiahou Ba if I remember correctly. :mrgreen:

Your points on his getting the job done are all fair and good, but they're only applicable up to the point where, hypothetically, Jiang Wei destroys the Sima clan and captures Wei. Is Xiahou Ba, a staunch supporter of the Cao clan, related to them by blood, going to simply accept that the work of his family has been destroyed? Somehow, I think not. There is no reason to indicate that Xiahou Ba had any real loyalty to the Han or to Shu, aside from his primary mission of revenge against the Simas. Once they're gone, what reason has he to support Jiang Wei's campaign against the rest of Wei?

I think that Xiahou Ba's association with Shu would end with him leading a mutiny from within the Shu camp and rejoining Wei in order to preserve the Cao dynasty. Whether or not he could have succeeded is difficult to determine, or even whether he would have done this. It's a moot point. However, I generally see Xiahou dying in the same way that Jiang Wei died; cut down in the heat of a mutinous brawl and not living his life out as a loyal officer of a restored Han Dynasty.
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Unread postby Mikhail » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:42 pm

Sima Hui wrote:Your points on his getting the job done are all fair and good, but they're only applicable up to the point where, hypothetically, Jiang Wei destroys the Sima clan and captures Wei. Is Xiahou Ba, a staunch supporter of the Cao clan, related to them by blood, going to simply accept that the work of his family has been destroyed? Somehow, I think not. There is no reason to indicate that Xiahou Ba had any real loyalty to the Han or to Shu, aside from his primary mission of revenge against the Simas. Once they're gone, what reason has he to support Jiang Wei's campaign against the rest of Wei?


I would think that the elimination of the Sima clan would require the whole pacification of the Wei empire. Just by capturing the main power bases in the Central Plains, doesn't mean that the Sima threat would go away. Plus, I would think that by that time, he would have developed close and personal relationships with people in the Shu army that it would become a really hard decision for him to give up being a Shu officer. Not to mention his relation to Shu royalty.

There might be some truth to what you say if the Simas were all killed in a battle in and around the Luoyang/Xu Chang area but I doubt that would be the case.
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