Xiahou Ba!

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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:48 am

Regarding your earlier point:

Koichi wrote:I dunno man, Xiahou Ba's loyalty was to his family. Even if the Simas were defeated, for him to just go up and accept the rule of their traditional enemy sounds a bit idealistic. Now Jiang Wei wouldn't just get up and leave so I suspect the ensuing conflict would be subtle and underhanded.

All I was trying to say is, I don't think there was any family left to be loyal to. Especially after a (theoretical) successful Shu invasion, years after Xiahou left Wei. He certainly wouldn't be able to set up an effective Cao resistance. He also wasn't a very ambitious man, just a loyal and devoted one. I could picture him trying to persuade the tattered remnants of the Cao clan to pitch in their loyalties with Jiang Wei.
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Unread postby Jiang Xun » Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:40 pm

Wouldn't XiahouBa actions be somewhat like that of the 47 ronin? After their leader was killed they went away, doing other jobs until they could get revenge.

XiahouBa left Wei b/c the Cao's/Xiahou's were being killed, he surely wanted revenge, he would have had better chances with Shu then Wu, b/c he knew that Shu would attack again and again until they succed or failed. Unlike Wu, who was more stagnant.

But thats just how i see it...
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Unread postby Jon » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:57 pm

I guess that's true, if that is how you look at it.

But Xiahou Ba still left what was essentially the kingdom his parents and cousins, uncles etc., so in my opinion even though he deserted "Wei" for a legitimate reason, he still left.


Nobody answered my question. Was he the only one left at the time?

Keep in mind that I said I like him, because he made the right decision. Being a traitor isn't always a bad thing, it's sometimes for the best.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:06 pm

Jiang Wenming wrote:But Xiahou Ba still left what was essentially the kingdom his parents and cousins, uncles etc., so in my opinion even though he deserted "Wei" for a legitimate reason, he still left.

I don't think so--the kingdom of his cousins, uncles, etc. was gone. What is the basis of a kingdom? Geographical location?

Jiang Wenming wrote:Nobody answered my question. Was he the only one left at the time?

He can't have been. He was one of the older Xiahous of his generation, but I don't think the rest of them were as important as he was. They may have been Xiahou Mao-inept.

Jiang Wenming wrote:Keep in mind that I said I like him, because he made the right decision. Being a traitor isn't always a bad thing, it's sometimes for the best.

Yeah, he certainly made the right decision, but I don't think it makes sense to classify him as a traitor. Maybe if his family was still in power when he left, say, if he took issue with an inept Emperor Cao, would be be a traitor. But his kingdom was gone. He had nothing left to betray.
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Unread postby Jon » Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:18 pm

Kong Zhengshu wrote:I don't think so--the kingdom of his cousins, uncles, etc. was gone. What is the basis of a kingdom? Geographical location?
Actually, sometimes yes it was. I mean didn't European kingdoms go through regime changes all the time, yet the kingdom was still the same? Or am I totally wrong here because I don't study Europe?

He can't have been. He was one of the older Xiahous of his generation, but I don't think the rest of them were as important as he was. They may have been Xiahou Mao-inept.
Yeah, I guess. Makes you wonder what happened to them, I mean whether or not they left for Shu or Wu as well.

That said, wasn't Xiahou Mao the one who trapped and nearly killed Zhao Yun himself? I know the man was old, but it's still quite an accomplishment.

Yeah, he certainly made the right decision, but I don't think it makes sense to classify him as a traitor. Maybe if his family was still in power when he left, say, if he took issue with an inept Emperor Cao, would be be a traitor. But his kingdom was gone. He had nothing left to betray.


Eh, you're right. I can't really argue with you there.

And Jiang Xun, I wouldn't exactly call Wu stagnant, they did lead a few campaigns of their own, in fact more than a few.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:26 pm

Jiang Wenming wrote:
Kong Zhengshu wrote:I don't think so--the kingdom of his cousins, uncles, etc. was gone. What is the basis of a kingdom? Geographical location?
Actually, sometimes yes it was. I mean didn't European kingdoms go through regime changes all the time, yet the kingdom was still the same? Or am I totally wrong here because I don't study Europe?

That's precisely my point, my friend. Kingdoms in Europe underwent extreme regime changes. I know you wouldn't expect a Jewish person who had family in important positions in Germany to remain loyal to the "kingdom" under Nazi rule just because it was in the same location.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:49 pm

It says in the novel that Sima Shi (or was it Sima Zhao?) gave a daughter of the Xiahou an adopted son to preserve the name of Cao or something? I thought Xiahou Ba was the only one left too! What's going on? :?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:16 pm

Well, I don't really recall what happened to Xiahou Shang, Xiahou De, Xiahou Wei, Xiahou Hui, Xiahou He, Xiahou Xuan, or Xiahou Ling. But they were all of Xiahou Ba's generation (or later, in some cases). It's clear that there were still some offshoots of the Xiahou clan floating around, but, as I said before, I'm not sure how important they were.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:02 pm

Xiahou Ba may not have been a traitor but what did he actually do for Shu? :? (Apart from almost capturing Deng Ai and having to rescue Jiang Wei)
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Unread postby Lodril » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:09 pm

I really don't have much strong opinion one way or the other on the character of Xiahou Ba... but I do love saying his name! Not sure why. Just sounds neat to me. :)
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