Xiahou Ba!

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Unread postby Sima Hui » Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:15 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Uh... Xiahou Ba would have to be born way earlier than 210... He was an older cousin of the Miss Xiahou who was Zhang Fei's wife. Miss Xiahou was 13 or 14 when Zhang Fei found her in Jian'an 5 (AD 201). The latest Xiahou Ba could have been born must be AD 187. When Chengdu fell in AD 263, he was 76 :shock:


Oh right... I'm surprised! He doesn't seem that old in the novel! :shock:
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:05 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:
I could really care less if u all say he was a loyal person.

Again, if you feel this way why should we care to listen to you, but then that's destroying the whole point of this forum, isn't it not?
He didnt even make an attempt to explain himself to the Simas. Also he left the kingdom his family fought so hard to preserve.

Why should he have to explain? his family was being murdered for the sake of the Sima's benefits, not real reason. He left the kingdom because the unsurption of a unloyal subject was immenent, so he could try and defeat him otherwise because if you haven't learned from reading the novel, any plan to remove a powerful officer was always found out and the result was death for the culprit.
And someone said that Wu was also an enemy. That is true... BUT Wu was the lesser enemy of Wei, and was not actively trying to destroy the kingdom the Xiahou family fought so hard to make powerful. Also he didnt go to his family in going to Shu. The only family he had there, he was married into.

Like Kong said, I'd prefer to live a life of opportunity and comfortability than in a place where my familiy was being murdered.
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Unread postby Peter » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:16 pm

sorry for interupted a bit...just add some suggestion...
1) given context, yes he would be considered treacherious because in China during the time, most leaders/ rulers emphasize absolute royality. I only agree to Dian_Wei's post till this point

2
)He didnt even make an attempt to explain himself to the Simas.
well, tell me, dude, how can you explain yourself to someone you know for sure want to have your head?

3.
BUT Wu was the lesser enemy of Wei,
, again though Wu did not actively attack Wei, Sun Quan still became an emperor, given the cultural context of the time, Emperor is appointed by God and meat to rule over the land. That make Wu as same as Shu on the level of enemy.

4.
Im not saying that it was good that the Simas killed members of his clan, but still loyalty is staying with ur liege at all costs.
. Yean for sure, if the act of sacarfies in the name of loyality actually mean something...Unlike Dian Wei (the general, not you) whose scarifies was very important. If Xihao Ba allow his life ended right there without a fight? That's true disroyality...

royality comes in many different forms, Dian_Wei and I hope you can at least try to embrace/ understand others' opinion...
have a nice day
Last edited by Peter on Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Koichi » Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:39 am

I concur with p, Xiahou Ba's loyalty lied with his emperor Cao Fang, not some upstart general who motioned himself towards usurption and massacred the Imperial family on his way. I think the fact that Xiahou Ba defected to Shu of all kingdoms showed either the amount of hatred he had for the Sima family and that he perceived them to be a greater threat to his emperor than their traditional enemy. If he's unable to defeat Sima Shi within Wei, its not treason to find help elsewhere.

This begs an interesting question: If Jiang Wei's next Northern expedition was successful and the Sima family was soundly defeated, what on EARTH were Jiang Wei and Xiahou Ba going to do with each other?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:07 am

In that situation, I assume Xiahou Ba would have just stayed on with Shu. There would have been no way that the Caos would have entered back into power. Xiahou Ba's mission was simply to defeat the Simas, not so much to reinstate the Caos (which wouldn't have happened anyway). If he was with Shu in order to accomplish that purpose, and Shu helped him accomplish that purpose, I see no reason why he wouldn't stay with them.
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Unread postby Koichi » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:55 am

Kong Zhengshu wrote:In that situation, I assume Xiahou Ba would have just stayed on with Shu. There would have been no way that the Caos would have entered back into power. Xiahou Ba's mission was simply to defeat the Simas, not so much to reinstate the Caos (which wouldn't have happened anyway). If he was with Shu in order to accomplish that purpose, and Shu helped him accomplish that purpose, I see no reason why he wouldn't stay with them.


I dunno man, Xiahou Ba's loyalty was to his family. Even if the Simas were defeated, for him to just go up and accept the rule of their traditional enemy sounds a bit idealistic. Now Jiang Wei wouldn't just get up and leave so I suspect the ensuing conflict would be subtle and underhanded. Jiang Wei would try and eliminate the remaining Cao-Xiahou family while Xiahou Ba would try to oust Jiang Wei and restore the Wei dynasty... under his emperorship.
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Unread postby Jon » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:03 am

Let me get things straight, was Ba the only Xiahou/Cao left at that time?

Anyways, I like him. No denying that he was a traitor, because he essentially was, but under the circumstances, it's perfectly logical and a wise decision.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:21 am

Jiang Wenming wrote:Anyways, I like him. No denying that he was a traitor, because he essentially was, but under the circumstances, it's perfectly logical and a wise decision.

Here's where we run into the trouble of defining "traitor." Do you think that an innocent person who escapes from a prison is a "traitor?" He didn't betray his promise, his word, or his ethics by leaving Wei. How can he be a traitor?
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Unread postby Peter » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:50 am

hmm, in response to Lady Wu's question about Ba's birth year...
in a large enough family it's very possible for one to have a younger relatives whose position in family suppose to be your senior...

for example a young mother (let say 14?) gave birth to a daughter, just bases on pure assumption, even when the daughter get's marry at age 14, the mother will only be 28 (thus still possible to produce sons and daugter)...

let's say 10 years passed, mother (now 38) and daughter (24) both give a birth to a new child though same age, one child must call the other uncle

thus similar situation could happen with Xiahou Ba's relatives (with a range of 10 to 15 years). so he could be very young despite he supposely is the "older" cousin...

hope I didn't confuse too many people ... :lol:
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Unread postby Koichi » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:31 am

Jiang Wenming wrote:Let me get things straight, was Ba the only Xiahou/Cao left at that time?

Anyways, I like him. No denying that he was a traitor, because he essentially was, but under the circumstances, it's perfectly logical and a wise decision.


I still think the bigger traitors are the guys that massacred the Cao-Xiahou family, murdered Empress Zhang, deposed Cao Fang, then murdered Cao Mao. If you call Xiahou Ba traitor you have to call Liu Bei a traitor too because Liu Bei ignored the edicts of the Prime Minister of Han, who served the Emperor :wink:

What are debatable are the motives. It could be argued that Sima Shi, like Cao Cao, was doing what was best for the kingdom at the expense of the defunct Imperial family. Xiahou Ba, like Liu Bei, was doing what was best for his family. However, Jiang Wei's invasion would suit neither the Wei kingdom nor whatever family ruling it.
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