Xiahou Ba!

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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:34 am

Dian_Wei wrote:I think he is a traitor. He left the kingdom his family loyally served. Imagine if Xiahou Yuan and Xiahou Dun knew that he would end up going to Shu. It would not be nearly as bad if he went to Wu, then i could at least retain a shred of good opinion of him. Him and Jiang Wei both made horrible choices. If i was in Wei and i wanted to leave or was forced to leave I would go to Wu, that way i could keep my pride and dignity, and I would not have to deal with the incompetent Liu Chan.

Hum.... Liu Shan's Empress was the niece to Xiahou Yuan. Xiahou Ba was the second son of Xiahou Yuan. So, this make Xiahou Ba had some relationship with Liu Shan. Well, do we call someone betrayer if he served his own relatives? :roll:
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Unread postby Zhilong » Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:39 am

What is more traitorous?

a) Staying in usurped Wei to serve the Sima's who control the court
or
b) Leaving unsurped Wei to serve another kingdom?

By choosing b i think it is obviously less traitorous since the Sima's are the bigger enemies of the Cao family and simultaneously you deny the usurpers your troops while reinforcing the troops of their enemy. You also get to live out the rest of your life in luxury.

If you chose a, you'd also likely be swiftly executed.

Going to Shu or Wu really makes little difference i'd say. Both are rival regimes.

Although he is related to Wu as well, his family ties are much closer to the Shu ruler. (All 3 imperial families were related by marriage.)
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:27 pm

I think Xiahou Ba made a good desicion. He was a trusted friend of Jiang Wei.

Suppose Jiang Wei reached Luoyang. He would want to wipe out the Cao clan. Xiahou Ba wanted to annihilate the Simas. They would have argued and at least one of them would have been killed. Xiahou Ba is therfore only loyal to the Cao.

Does anyone have a bio on Xiahou Ba?
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:57 pm

Xiahou Bei's decision was an act of honour, not treachery. Is it wrong to betray the person who's plan was to unsurp your families throne, and has already taken away the majority of authority and control your family used to have? The answer is obviously no. Xiahou Ba's honourable betrayel also had the intention of destroying Sima Yi because of what he did to the Cao lineage, this is an act of loyalty, not berayel Dian_Wei.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:41 pm

I found out some stuff about Xiahou Ba (thanks again Kong Zhengshu) :D

Xiahou Ba was born around 210 A.D (not quite sure on this...) His father was killed in 219. He would often grind his teeth in hatred for Shu.

He helped Sima Yi against Zhuge Liang but after Sima killed Cao Shuang he fled to Shu (odd really now that I think about it...) His daughter had married Zhang Fei and their child had married Liu Shan. Xiahou Ba was treated well and he advised Jiang Wei on campaigns.

In 263 he led a unit to capture Taoyang. He found the city empty. He rode into the city and was ambushed. Xiahou Ba and the 500 men with him all perished. It is said that hearing of the news of his companion's death Jiang Wei wept for hours. :cry:
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:41 am

Uh... Xiahou Ba would have to be born way earlier than 210... He was an older cousin of the Miss Xiahou who was Zhang Fei's wife. Miss Xiahou was 13 or 14 when Zhang Fei found her in Jian'an 5 (AD 201). The latest Xiahou Ba could have been born must be AD 187. When Chengdu fell in AD 263, he was 76 :shock:
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:44 am

I could really care less if u all say he was a loyal person. He didnt even make an attempt to explain himself to the Simas. Also he left the kingdom his family fought so hard to preserve. He didnt try to rebel to fix the unjust rule of the simas, he simply left. And someone said that Wu was also an enemy. That is true... BUT Wu was the lesser enemy of Wei, and was not actively trying to destroy the kingdom the Xiahou family fought so hard to make powerful. Also he didnt go to his family in going to Shu. The only family he had there, he was married into. Im not saying that it was good that the Simas killed members of his clan, but still loyalty is staying with ur liege at all costs.
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Unread postby Lafeel » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:28 am

I think Xiahou ba made the right decision. Because Sima Yi had killed Cao Shuhang and frankly there was no reason to belive that he would not kill him as well. It is impossible, really to say what his uncle and father would have thought, but I think they would have agreed that it was the best thing to do all things considered.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:04 am

Xiahou Ba was right in switching alliegences, but dam couldn't he take a couple of people wif him? If he had any brains at all he'd at least try to talk Zhong Hui over wif him or maybe kidnap a member of the Sima family.....
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:22 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:I could really care less if u all say he was a loyal person.

Then why should anyone here care less if you think he was a traitor?

Think about it, the whole purpose of this forum is to engage in discussion about this novel/history and its characters. Discussion is two-sided. Part of the etiquette of conduct here is to respect the opinions of the other members. You're entitled to your opinion on the matter as well, but don't try to put it forth as God's Truth.

To be quite frank, any more behaviour of this type is going to be seen as trolling, and will have to be treated as such (i.e. a warning). PM me if you have any questions.

Dian_Wei wrote:He didnt even make an attempt to explain himself to the Simas. Also he left the kingdom his family fought so hard to preserve.

No he didn't--the kingdom his family fought so hard to preserve had just been overthrown.

Dian_Wei wrote:He didnt try to rebel to fix the unjust rule of the simas, he simply left.

He left so that he had a reasonable chance of rebelling and fixing the unust rule of the Simas. One doesn't do that kind of thing from the inside, alone, you know.

Dian_Wei wrote:And someone said that Wu was also an enemy. That is true... BUT Wu was the lesser enemy of Wei, and was not actively trying to destroy the kingdom the Xiahou family fought so hard to make powerful. Also he didnt go to his family in going to Shu. The only family he had there, he was married into.

For some reason, I'd feel more comfortable in a kingdom where my family was married-into than in a kingdom where my family was being murdered.

Dian_Wei wrote:Im not saying that it was good that the Simas killed members of his clan, but still loyalty is staying with ur liege at all costs.

Even after your liege has been killed? Xiahou Ba did the only thing that would allow him to effectively resist the Sima regime without being instantly killed. It's not like he went to Shu and led a life of luxury.
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