Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

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Best/Favourite of the Three Kingdoms?

Wei
134
33%
Shu
161
40%
Wu
107
27%
 
Total votes : 402

Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Han » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:18 am

I am not really thrilled to have caught your attention, but against my better judgment, here goes.

1) My post was made tongue-in-cheek, poking fun at myself because I have an unreasonable dislike for Ma Chao. I am aware that there were impressive elements to his rebellion but I just don't like the guy.

2) Yeah he put the squeeze on Cao Cao directly in a battle. And as you mention, apparently only two others managed to put Cao Cao in direct and imminent danger, Zhang Xiu and Xu Rong. That's overlooking a lot because Cao Cao often found himself threatened, but OK let's stick with direct and imminent danger, i.e. the other commander stood a high chance of killing him during their combat.

Zhang Xiu - He does the impossible twice. Despite costing Cao Cao his son, his bodyguard, and almost his life, goes on to serve Cao Cao in a respectable capacity before passing away about a decade later.

Xu Rong - Gets killed by rebel commanders, fades into history. As much as I like Xu Rong, I think luck played a large part in his back-to-back successes against Cao Cao and Sun Jian, perhaps his troops at the time were more experienced than theirs. Something was definitely up because his end at the hands of Dong Zhuo's former commanders was pretty anti-climatic.

Ma Chao - Rebels, gets a bunch of his own family killed. Most of the rebel commanders under him get killed in combat. When the tide turns against him, he has that really nasty affair with Wei Kang and his subordinates.

That last bit is honestly what turns me off to the guy, the way I read the Wei Kang affair is that he took his tiny army remnants and turned into a bloodthirsty savage as he scrambled to reclaim a power base. While I'm aware that if he didn't do something then it would have meant certain death for him, my impression was that he went on a warpath of wanton destruction.


Ok? I have no idea how to reply to this.

1) Ok.

2) Ok.

Zhang Xiu and Xu Rong) Ok.

Ma Chao - He rebelled because Cao Cao was trying to start bullshit by mobillising a huge amount of troops near their borders without informing the Xiliang warlords even though some of them were his allies and directly appointed by the Han court under his control. Basically, he had no choice. Yes, he suffered a huge loss against Cao Cao, the greatest general of the era. And yes, Ma Chao was a poor administrator and leader of man and an extremely flawed individual in terms of moral values. I have never denied this. But even with the odds stacked against him, with no secure power base, he was still able to ambush Xiahou Yuan who was one of the more successful generals of the era.

Sure. And he absolutely deserve to be criticised for being a jackass douchebag c•••. But its important to note that others like Cao Cao, Sun Quan, Dong Zhuo, Lü Bu, Zhang Yan, the Yellow Turbans and many many other warlords and generals of that era also committed numerous atrocities against peasants and even local gentries. Heck even Liu Bei frequently allied with bandit forces to wage campaigns and Liu Yu withheld supplies and reinforcements from Gongsun Zan even though Gongsun was waging a campaign against the nomads under Han authority. And these two guys are frequently held in high esteem for their kind treatment to other gentries and peasants.

So really singling out Ma Chao for something that was quite common in that era in China and even all around the world is quite laughable. Though yes, Ma Chao still deserved to be criticised.

Grrrrrr, just lost a post :(.

Lots of people have answered your wider points Han so I'm just going to address the crux of the debate.

I think both of us are arguing that both their rises were impressive. Compared to the other major warlords of the era (Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, Liu Biao etc) they came from relatively nothing. Our dispute is over who had the least.

Your argument for Liu Bei seems to hang on tow points.

1) Sun Jian's family appointing him to a local office.

However it is the equivalent rank that Liu Hong held when he died, so clearly Liu Bei's family had a similar level of influence.

Also you argued yourself that Liu Bei's family had enough influence to get him an education:


I understand your frustration. It has happened to me quite a few times too!

Ok.

Not really a 'dispute' . Just some friendly debate over small disagreements IMO. And FWIW, you were the one that started the comparisons. Initially, I was just pointing out why Sun Jian background was not highlighted.

1) Uhh wait a minute. The influence and wealth of Gentry clans in Ancient China frequently waned and waxed. Even within said clans, their power differed from generation to generation. All of this can be due to various factors like seniority, titles, ranks, position, individual relationships, talents,etc etc. Using Liu Hong rank as an example of Liu Bei family's power would not be entirely appropriate especially when Liu Hong already died when Liu Bei was young. Even then, Liu Hong only served in a commandery office. As a clerk( according to wikipedia). So really, Liu Bei never had 'similar influence' and there wasnt much influence a clerk can have in the first place!

That I did.

2) That Sun Jian's family could afford to buy him a saber.

However we read in Rafe's Biographic Dictionary:

Liu Yuanqi gave provisions to Liu Bei in the same fashion as to his own son


Now we don't know how much Liu Bei was getting but clearly someone way subsidising him. Was it comparable to the cost of a saber? Well lets see:

Liu Bei had small interests in books but took pleasure in dogs and horses, in music, and in fine clothing


In my experience dogs, horses and fine clothing are expensive hobbies, far more so that a weapon. So I think we can conclude that Liu Bei had some money, his family had some influence and he had a great education and made some important connections in Lu Zhi and Gongsun Zan. Therefore his starting point was better than Sun Jians.


2) Ok.

Providing material support. We dont know what kind of support. But dogs and horses probably did not count as material support. Horses was also frequently found in the frontier regions of China in antiquity so it wasnt that expensive( in comparison to a weapon). And dogs? You serious? But fine. The clothing were definitely more expensive. So I will concede that.

Liu Bei's uncle. NOT Liu Bei. Lü Zhi and Gongsun Zan had regional fame but was pretty much nobodies then. And frankly, if we want to extend Liu Bei all the way to his end of his teenage years, its important to note that Sun Jian also had some regional fame and even a military position[ albeit a small one] by the time he started out thanks to the pirate thingy. So no, no matter how you look at it, be it childhood, young teenage years or up until they started out by serving active military service, Liu Bei position was worse than Sun Jian one.

Lu Xun came from Wu county which I would argue was rather more centrally located within Wu. The Lu clan was one of the great families of the south.


Literally same commandery and same province. Exactly my point. How can Wuyue be a backwater and at the edge of civillisation when they had recorded clans with great influence and wealth. Did BaShu or Baiyue regions have recorded great families to the same extent? 8-) :wink:

Yes, if Sun Jian's descendants had stayed generals and officials. But Sun Quan founded an imperial state and yet the Wu historians could not scrounge up even one office holder.


Sure. Yes, not because lack of wealth or influence but because lack of social standing standing and reliable records.

Sure, pretty much everyone recorded in the histories would have been among the 1% richest in the country.


I dont think the Ancient Han China view wealth exactly the same as we do in modern times. And wealth in antiquity is also hard to pin down.
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:47 am

Han wrote:Ok? I have no idea how to reply to this.


Yeah me neither. Specifically these bold bits...

Han wrote:1) Ok.

2) Ok.

Zhang Xiu and Xu Rong) Ok.

Ma Chao - He rebelled because Cao Cao was trying to start bullshit by mobillising a huge amount of troops near their borders without informing the Xiliang warlords even though some of them were his allies and directly appointed by the Han court under his control. Basically, he had no choice. Yes, he suffered a huge loss against Cao Cao, the greatest general of the era. And yes, Ma Chao was a poor administrator and leader of man and an extremely flawed individual in terms of moral values. I have never denied this. But even with the odds stacked against him, with no secure power base, he was still able to ambush Xiahou Yuan who was one of the more successful generals of the era.

Sure. And he absolutely deserve to be criticised for being a jackass douchebag c•••. But its important to note that others like Cao Cao, Sun Quan, Dong Zhuo, Lü Bu, Zhang Yan, the Yellow Turbans and many many other warlords and generals of that era also committed numerous atrocities against peasants and even local gentries. Heck even Liu Bei frequently allied with bandit forces to wage campaigns and Liu Yu withheld supplies and reinforcements from Gongsun Zan even though Gongsun was waging a campaign against the nomads under Han authority. And these two guys are frequently held in high esteem for their kind treatment to other gentries and peasants.

So really singling out Ma Chao for something that was quite common in that era in China and even all around the world is quite laughable. Though yes, Ma Chao still deserved to be criticised.


Why would you say "OK" to point 1 (in which I was making fun of myself for having a personal bias against Ma Chao) and then make the bold comment afterward?

If I have an unreasonable dislike for one of the figures of the era - which by its very definition means I am not being fair to said person - then why would I be interested in trying to reasonably assess his actions? If you are fortunate to be free of personal bias when assessing Three Kingdoms figures, wonderful for you for being able to be so objective, but for others that may not necessarily be the case.

I'm just going to re-quote the bulk of my post that you cherry-picked my Ma Chao attack from, as I think that expressed my actual point quite clearly, which unless I am mistaken, happens to be the same one that you made in your post I am responding to. (see bold)

Zyzyfer wrote:The key thing to remember is that no one was really perfect and people will admire and fault different rulers based on their own opinions on various matters. Some people even find a balance where action A that ruler X did was terrible but action B was long-lasting or really admirable, so the person was neither a saint nor a dastardly villain in the end, just a product of the dark times. Although it's also worth noting that a lot of people will take on pet "hate projects" where they just straight up vilify so-and-so for actions they deem reprehensible - for instance I hate the historical Ma Chao because I think he got his daddy killed with his little rebellion, and then didn't even end up accomplishing much of anything while also killing family members of officers who were resisting him, and I am pretty firmly set in seeing him this way and it will never change because of my bias against him.

The novel is a great place to start learning about the period. If your interest continues to be piqued, you can start exploring the historical side of the period. It's just always important to remember that the author of ROTK was trying to write an entertaining story when it was all said and done, and that included having clear heroes to root for and villains to detest, and that the actual historical figures are generally far more complex individuals.
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Sakae Wu » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:57 am

Zyzyfer wrote:Why would you say "OK" to point 1 (in which I was making fun of myself for having a personal bias against Ma Chao) and then make the bold comment afterward?

If I have an unreasonable dislike for one of the figures of the era - which by its very definition means I am not being fair to said person - then why would I be interested in trying to reasonably assess his actions? If you are fortunate to be free of personal bias when assessing Three Kingdoms figures, wonderful for you for being able to be so objective, but for others that may not necessarily be the case.

I'm just going to re-quote the bulk of my post that you cherry-picked my Ma Chao attack from, as I think that expressed my actual point quite clearly, which unless I am mistaken, happens to be the same one that you made in your post I am responding to. (see bold)

Zyzyfer wrote:The key thing to remember is that no one was really perfect and people will admire and fault different rulers based on their own opinions on various matters. Some people even find a balance where action A that ruler X did was terrible but action B was long-lasting or really admirable, so the person was neither a saint nor a dastardly villain in the end, just a product of the dark times. Although it's also worth noting that a lot of people will take on pet "hate projects" where they just straight up vilify so-and-so for actions they deem reprehensible - for instance I hate the historical Ma Chao because I think he got his daddy killed with his little rebellion, and then didn't even end up accomplishing much of anything while also killing family members of officers who were resisting him, and I am pretty firmly set in seeing him this way and it will never change because of my bias against him.

The novel is a great place to start learning about the period. If your interest continues to be piqued, you can start exploring the historical side of the period. It's just always important to remember that the author of ROTK was trying to write an entertaining story when it was all said and done, and that included having clear heroes to root for and villains to detest, and that the actual historical figures are generally far more complex individuals.


Your first instinct was right. Simple explanations aren't going to get through to a contrarian.

I understood what you were saying in the original post, as do most of the members here I'm sure. The last paragraph I especially agree with. I would think even the most brutal men of that time had a little compassion and empathy at some point in their lives. Like you said, they're all complicated human beings.

Personally, I don't feel like I really "hate" anyone from the 3k. Maybe because it feels just too far removed from day to day life. And partly because I just don't feel I know the whole story behind some of these people.
But, I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone for having strong feelings for any of them. (Even though I teased about Gan Ning)

@ Han
Describing peoples opinions as "laughable" isn't a good look.
Being quarrelsome =/= friendly debate
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Fornadan » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:50 am

Han wrote:
Literally same commandery and same province. Exactly my point. How can Wuyue be a backwater and at the edge of civillisation when they had recorded clans with great influence and wealth. Did BaShu or Baiyue regions have recorded great families to the same extent? 8-) :wink:
There are different degrees of remote. Wu as a region was on the outskirts of Han civilization, and Fuchun county was on the outskirts of Wu.

Yes, if Sun Jian's descendants had stayed generals and officials. But Sun Quan founded an imperial state and yet the Wu historians could not scrounge up even one office holder.


Sure. Yes, not because lack of wealth or influence but because lack of social standing standing and reliable records.

I don't see how you can make a distinction between influence and social standing, one of them leads directly to the other. And a family without reliable records is by definition more obscure than one with.
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Han » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:11 pm

Why would you say "OK" to point 1 (in which I was making fun of myself for having a personal bias against Ma Chao) and then make the bold comment afterward?

If I have an unreasonable dislike for one of the figures of the era - which by its very definition means I am not being fair to said person - then why would I be interested in trying to reasonably assess his actions? If you are fortunate to be free of personal bias when assessing Three Kingdoms figures, wonderful for you for being able to be so objective, but for others that may not necessarily be the case.

I'm just going to re-quote the bulk of my post that you cherry-picked my Ma Chao attack from, as I think that expressed my actual point quite clearly, which unless I am mistaken, happens to be the same one that you made in your post I am responding to. (see bold)


The Ok in point 1 is to show that I understand your point and do not have any [major] disagreements. The bold comment on the bottom of the post is me correcting your impression and explaining to you why Ma Chao wasnt really a 'wanton of destruction' as everyone more or less did the same and occasionally at a higher degree. I then proceeded to point out the double standard.

Uhh, for the sake of consistency and common sense? I dont see what my own personal bias( if I have any) is relevant here. Im not the one pointing out the flaws of historical figures and hitting them with a stick for actions other people in that era commonly did too.

I didnt cherry pick anything. When I do not reply or attempt to rebutt your point in a long paragraph, it means I more or less am fine with it( though that doesnt mean I entirely agree with it).

Your first instinct was right. Simple explanations aren't going to get through to a contrarian.


What do you mean by contrarian? Google defines contrarian as someone who rejects popular opinion but I dont see me rejecting any popular opinion.

@ Han
Describing peoples opinions as "laughable" isn't a good look.
Being quarrelsome =/= friendly debate


Depends. If their opinion hold a double standard I will point out the sillyness of said hypocrisy. But yes, I agree it was rude of me to just dismiss an opinion even though it was highly hypocritical. Would silly be a better word(/s).

Im not being quarrelsome. I literally agreed with half of Zyzyfer points even though his starting paragraph implies some sort of dissatisfaction. Likewise, I literally conceded one point to Sun Fin and admitted my mistake.

There are different degrees of remote. Wu as a region was on the outskirts of Han civilization, and Fuchun county was on the outskirts of Wu.


Agreed. No. Straight up false. RDC GOS 1 states

In this region, the Shi ji of Sima Qian, referring to the region of Eastern Chu, and the discussion on the "Territory of Wu," in the Treatise of Geography in Han shu, both describe the region of the "Three Jiang and the Five Lakes" as low-lying and damp, so that many men died young. It was, however, naturally prosperous, with profit from the production of sea salt and from copper in the Zhang Hills to the west, while the city of Wu was one of the great cities of the empire.94


And

We are nonetheless told that members of the Xu family of Yangxian in Wu commandery had been recommended for office since the earliest years of Later Han, and Xu Yu became Grand Commandant, most senior position in thebureaucracy, in 181, while the Zhou family of Shu county in Lujiang supplied many imperial officials, including two Grand Commandants. 128 In more limited terms, the Lu family of Wu county in Wu commandery had been local leaders for generations and produced several officials;129 and the Gao and Yan clans of Wu commandery, the Jiao and the He of Kuaiji, held substantial influence at county or even commandery level.130


So Wu, be it the commandery or the region was not on the 'outskirts' of Han civillisation. Not as important as the central plains but still highly regarded in comparison to the other Southern Provinces excluding the Jing Xiang.

To be fair, I will concede that Fuchun was a backwater as RDC refers to Fuchun county as minor and a backwater. But its important to note that this 'minor' and 'backwater' can mean area size or population. Not cultural importance, wealth or influence/reputation.

During the reign of Emperor Shun of Later Han the commandery of Kuaiji was divided, and the city of Wu became the capital of a more restricted unit between the mouth of the Yangzi and Hangzhou Bay, with extension up the Zhe River to the southwest and the minor county of Fuchun. The southern part of the former commandery,
which retained the name Kuaiji, had its capital at Shanyin near present-day Shaoxing, on the southern shore of the bay.


Though there was trade and other contact with the non-Chinese peoples of the hills, and some immigration of Chinese from the north, Fuchun under Later Han was something of a backwater.


I don't see how you can make a distinction between influence and social standing, one of them leads directly to the other. And a family without reliable records is by definition more obscure than one with.


Again it depends. Sun Jian father was [likely] a merchant and so was able to get his son into a minor office. Thats great influence and possibly because of wealth. At the same time, his merchant background and lousy ancestral heritage prevented him from getting Sun Jian a better position. Thats a lack of social standing. One doesnt always lead to the other. Especially not directly. You mean Liu Bei? Sure, Sun Jian's ancestry was more obscure than Liu Bei's BUT again, thats not because of lack of influence or wealth but because of Liu Bei 'Liu' background and his ancestors receiving higher office which results in better records.
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:53 pm

Don't worry Sun Fin, it was a minor misremember

Sure. And he absolutely deserve to be criticised for being a jackass douchebag c•••.


Han, I realize this is back after awhile but the no swearing rule applies. Even over dead figures

Sure? I was explaining why his background and rise was more highlighted and impressive. And this is more of explaining why his rise wasnt overstated and how the peasant connections were seldom mentioned because it only came during his rise after he had some form of legitimacy quite similar to pretty much everyone else.


I get why it is highlighted and why it is impressive. What I'm challenging is the view that Liu Bei was the average peasant, the sandal seller, starting with same as every commoner in China though I agree he was extremely wealth/background poor by warlord standards. Liu Bei's peasant background does get mentioned a lot when people discuss Liu Bei, I agree not so much at the time but I was more thinking his nowadays reputation

Though I'm not sure what peasant contacts he had in his youth was why he was so popular with populace in a lot of different areas. Bar his officer core and soldiers, those he knew were left behind when he left for his next posts.

Subsidised sure? First, it was not a school. It was a tutor. Second, i never claimed it was free. I claimed it was more connections than cash. Also, Lü Zhi only recorded students, Liu Bei and his cousin and Gongsun Zan were all from the same area. Considering Lü Zhi regional fame, if cash was the factor, more people would have been sending their kids to him for studies. Third, they did not send him abroad. Liu Bei and Lü Zhi were literally in Zhuo commandery. Fourth, a young man weaving sandles probably wouldnt impact income stream much especially considering the disorder of the Latter Han by the late 170s and early 180s which would have a higher impact. As for Liu Bei fighting life, his mercenary band was sponsored by two merchants as detailed in SGZ while his early warlord days were sponsored by the Mi clan. With his fictional sworn brothers acting as his right and left hand man when it came to generalship. Meanwhile, by the time of his mid warlord days, he already received numerous appointments and regional fame. So little, if not nothing came out of Liu pockets much less his family's. Because said other peasants did not have the connections nor ancestral background nor richer branches of their family willing to support them? Sure.


1) I'm possibly thinking he was going for Ma Rong style education rather then 1v1's, particularly given we know he had three names at the same time. 2) Connections rather then cash? I would agree that it would be extremely unlikely that a rich merchant would get in but it would still require cash to get in. Gao Yu was also from the area (so we know 4, yay :wink: ) but with teachers, they would have had more pupils then we have heard of.

3) Abroad was the sgz's translation term. De Crespigny puts the study at a time when Lu Zhi was based in Luoyang as an Academic so possibly were abroad comes from.

4) If your resorting to selling sandals when from a family of officials, your not doing it for a minor income stream that you can turn on and off.

5) De Crespigny puts fighting man life as pre that bit, I maybe read too much into that

Glad we agree on last line.
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Han » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:20 pm

Han, I realize this is back after awhile but the no swearing rule applies. Even over dead figures


Oh right lmao. I will keep this in mind. I sincerely apologise.

I get why it is highlighted and why it is impressive. What I'm challenging is the view that Liu Bei was the average peasant, the sandal seller, starting with same as every commoner in China though I agree he was extremely wealth/background poor by warlord standards. Liu Bei's peasant background does get mentioned a lot when people discuss Liu Bei, I agree not so much at the time but I was more thinking his nowadays reputation

Though I'm not sure what peasant contacts he had in his youth was why he was so popular with populace in a lot of different areas. Bar his officer core and soldiers, those he knew were left behind when he left for his next posts.


Oh but Ive never seen anyone claim Liu Bei to be an average peasant. He did after all had the 'Liu' name plus others assisting him even before his warlord days.

'Rise' doesnt mean youth. It means from his mercenary days when he first saw military command to his days of being Emperor of Shu Han.

1) I'm possibly thinking he was going for Ma Rong style education rather then 1v1's, particularly given we know he had three names at the same time. 2) Connections rather then cash? I would agree that it would be extremely unlikely that a rich merchant would get in but it would still require cash to get in. Gao Yu was also from the area (so we know 4, yay :wink: ) but with teachers, they would have had more pupils then we have heard of.

3) Abroad was the sgz's translation term. De Crespigny puts the study at a time when Lu Zhi was based in Luoyang as an Academic so possibly were abroad comes from.

4) If your resorting to selling sandals when from a family of officials, your not doing it for a minor income stream that you can turn on and off.

5) De Crespigny puts fighting man life as pre that bit, I maybe read too much into that

Glad we agree on last line.


1) Disagree. RDC explicitly states that Ma Rong created an academy where he received thousands of students and that Lü Zhi studied in a university. Lü Zhi had less than 5 recorded students and it would have been noted if he had more than 100/1000 thousands even unamed ones. Its also not recorded that he set up an academy or that his students attended his academy. And honestly, its entirely possible to teach 3-5 people at once without needing to set up an academy. 2) Require cash? Most likely. But we can only spectaculate the exact amount. Personally I would believe that its the lower end but whatever. So less than 5 recorded. Yay(/s). We dont know that unfortunately.

3)

William Gordon Crowell Liu Bei SGZ states

When he was 15, his mother sent him to study. With his clansman Liu Deran 德然 and Gongsun Zan 公孫贊 of Liaoxi 遼東 he became a disciple of the former grand administrator of Jiujiang 九江 commandery, Lu Zhi
盧植 who was from the same commandery.7


Xue San Guo Gongsun Zan SGZ states
Administrator Hóu was impressed with him, wed his daughter to him, (1) and sent him to visit Lú Zhí of Zhuō-jùn to study the classics.


Neither SGZ records 'abroad' or even 'away'. Just sending them to study. Source for the RDC thing? The timeline doesnt add up. Liu Bei was sent at 15 yrs. 161 + 15 = 176. Lü Zhi was appointed to the administration of Jiujiang at 175 and consultant in 177. In between these, he resigned in ill health. Its more likely IMO, that Lü Zhi retired in early 176 and went back home to Zhuo where he taught Liu Bei and the others and then in late 177 or whatever, he went back to be a consultant.

4) Yeah sure. But the income stream might have turned itself off due to the disorder of the 170s. And we also know that Liu Bei uncle most likely assisted Liu Bei education as his son was studying there too. And it would be strange for his uncle to send Liu Bei away and yet not help his mother make ends meet.

5) Liu Bei first saw command only after forming his mercenary band.

Ok.
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:48 pm

Han wrote:The bold comment on the bottom of the post is me correcting your impression


:lol:

OK.
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Han » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:32 am

Zyzyfer wrote:
Han wrote:The bold comment on the bottom of the post is me correcting your impression


:lol:

OK.


Its clear that u arent debating in good faith.

and explaining to you why Ma Chao wasnt really a 'wanton of destruction' as everyone more or less did the same and occasionally at a higher degree. I then proceeded to point out the double standard.


So ru going to refute my stand or just dismiss it?
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Re: Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:04 am

Hmm, I never made my original post in this thread to debate. THAT'S what I meant by my comment, "I am not really thrilled to have caught your attention, but against my better judgment, here goes."
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