Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

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Best/Favourite of the Three Kingdoms?

Wei
138
34%
Shu
162
40%
Wu
107
26%
 
Total votes : 407

Unread postby Li Ruiyue » Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:55 am

My favourite force is Wu. They hold a steady amount of ground in the Southlands for a long while. They were well suited for naval warfare, which was a eavy advantage at the battle of Chi Bi.
Wu gained many fine and talented strategists, namely Zhou Yu, Lu Meng and Lu Xun (my favourite character :wink: ). Zhou Yu unfortunatly died, but he got the kingdom of Wu off to a great start. Lu Xun continued his legacy after Lu Su and Lu Meng did.
The Sun family who ruled over Wu also were descended from the great strategist Sun Tzu.

Those are the main reasons why I prefer Wu. They held the southlands under good rule, and they were the last kingdom to perish under Jin.
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Unread postby Liao Zhen » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:27 pm

I agree with Jiang. My favorite kingdom is also Wu. For all of the Shu-loyalists out there Wu without a doubt gave Liu Bei an oppurtunity for land and existance. Wu was a smart kingdom, allying and annulling to fit themselves which was the most ambitious thing to do.

Many strongpoints of Wu are listed as follows.
1. Strong Leaders, from Sun Jian to Sun Quan all of the people loved them.
2. Protection from the river.
3. A good collection of able and loyal warriors.
4. Some of the best strategists.

A few mishaps of Wu are as follows.
1. Their leaders were extemely unlucky, and brash.
2. Guan Yu's decapitated head (Lu Meng).
3. The river, they were protected but had a time of attacking.
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Unread postby Deng Ai » Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:50 pm

Liao Zhen wrote:A few mishaps of Wu are as follows.
1. Their leaders were extemely unlucky, and brash.
2. Guan Yu's decapitated head (Lu Meng).
3. The river, they were protected but had a time of attacking.


You didn't list what I think is the worst thing Wu had going for them: their generals died early deaths with exception of a few. Sun Jian, Sun Ce, Zhou Yu, Taishi Ci and Gan Ning are just a few of those generals who died way before they should've. IMO, if Wu's generals lived longer, they would've become much better.
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Unread postby Liao Zhen » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:00 pm

I did say that. The first mishap of Wu. You must have thought I meant only the Lieges. When I mean leaders people like Zhou Yu were leaders but of an army. I guess I needed to clarify that. Sorry.
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Unread postby Deng Ai » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:09 pm

Liao Zhen wrote:I did say that. The first mishap of Wu. You must have thought I meant only the Lieges. When I mean leaders people like Zhou Yu were leaders but of an army. I guess I needed to clarify that. Sorry.


Oops. :oops: You shouldn't be the one apoligizing. My bad.
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Unread postby Liao Zhen » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:11 pm

Ah, dont worry about it. We just saw the phrase differently thats all. No need to be humble.
"War, it brings us closer, yet it drives us apart. War makes legends, destroys legends. War brings a veil of peace, and destroys peace. War ends corruption, war begins corruption." ~ Me
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Unread postby didier » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:15 pm

Sorry to those who root for it, but I believe Wu was the weakest of the 3 Kingdoms. According to my opinion formed from SGYY, Sun Quan was a weak leader in comparison to Cao Cao and Liu Bei.

Sun Jian and Sun Ce were valiant warriors who conquered and had no fear in battle, but after their kingdom was established, Sun Quan accomplished little of his own.

As SQ says himself when in despair before Yi Ling that before he had Zhou Yu, Lu Su and Lu Meng, and they were the key to his success. Lu Xun was the final great leader for Wu.

Under the leadership of SQ and his succesors, nothing was achieved North of the Great River, and Jingzhou was held at times by the men mentioned above.

As for Wu's great leaders, Gan Ning was the last great general and Lu Xun was their last great strategist. If you've read the book you'll realise SQ was useless without these types of men as his accomplishments were after they died.

However you can't knock Wu for being kind to the people and having the least conflicts. But I don't admire SQ at all like I would CC or LB.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:11 pm

"You can't build up a kingdom without founding it, but it's futile to found a kingdom without the ability to build it up." One brother founded the kingdom, the other built it up. It's hard to say who's more important.

The difference between Sun Ce and Sun Quan's times is that when Sun Ce was still roaming the land, there were few aggressively expanding forces in the region. Yan Baihu, Wang Lang, etc were small independent forces with little ambition and thus were easily knocked out by someone who had some military daring. However, when Sun Quan took over, Cao Cao's state was burgeoning and there wasn't really much room for expansion anymore northward.

This is what Sun Quan accomplished:
(1) conquered the south. Sun Ce only held the land around the downriver Yangtze region, but SQ expanded to the south (which in a sense was harder because the Shanyue insurgents fought guerilla-style and it's hard to maintain their loyalty even when they were defeated).
(2) fended off two off the largest-scale invasion in 3k history: Chibi and Yiling. If his opponents were able to make such huge invasions, it is obvious that SQ had a hard time invading *them* as well.
(3) attempted numerous attacks on Hefei. They were failures, but he tried. I think he committed the fatal mistake of putting himself on the frontline, just as Cao Cao and Cao Pi both did when they tried to invade Wu. Once the ruler's company was routed, morale dropped seriously and there was no way to save the situation.
(4) maintained Wu's right to Jingzhou. He stood up for Wu when Liu Bei refused to return Jingzhou.
(5) oversaw numerous civil engineering projects: dams, irrigation, cities, shipyards, you name it, he made it.
(6) showed exceptional leadership in using his men to their fullest potential, even though they were not perfect.

SQ was arguably the best leader. A good leader doesn't do everything himself (othewise he'd end up like Zhuge Liang), but rather keeps a lookout for potential stars and inspires those talents to serve himself. Considering how the Sun family wasn't prestigious or anything in the area, and had neither the emperor or an imperial pedigree to support them, it was quite amazing that so many talented people stayed loyal to Sun Quan. SQ was also the best politician, flexible in foreign affairs, keeping Wu afloat when the other two kingdoms looked on it with scorn as Wu lacked the "legitimacy" they had.

What Sun Quan had to do was far more difficult than Sun Ce's work. However, since we always like the image of dashing young warriors rather than wise politicians maintaining the delicate balance of things in his own country and try not to gamble it off, Sun Ce/Jian stands out as a stronger character than Sun Quan. :cry:
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Unread postby Liao Zhen » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:24 pm

didier wrote:Sorry to those who root for it, but I believe Wu was the weakest of the 3 Kingdoms. According to my opinion formed from SGYY, Sun Quan was a weak leader in comparison to Cao Cao and Liu Bei.

Sun Jian and Sun Ce were valiant warriors who conquered and had no fear in battle, but after their kingdom was established, Sun Quan accomplished little of his own.

As SQ says himself when in despair before Yi Ling that before he had Zhou Yu, Lu Su and Lu Meng, and they were the key to his success. Lu Xun was the final great leader for Wu.

Under the leadership of SQ and his succesors, nothing was achieved North of the Great River, and Jingzhou was held at times by the men mentioned above.

As for Wu's great leaders, Gan Ning was the last great general and Lu Xun was their last great strategist. If you've read the book you'll realise SQ was useless without these types of men as his accomplishments were after they died.

However you can't knock Wu for being kind to the people and having the least conflicts. But I don't admire SQ at all like I would CC or LB.


I believe that by far Liu Bei was the worst leader in some aspects. If you don't remeber he put strangers before his family, example Zhao Yun and Liu Chan. On numerous occations he betrayed men and still claimed he was righteous. The last reason why he was probably the worst leader was that if it was'nt for Zhuge Liang, or for that matter Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, Liu Bei would truly be the, "Base weaver of straw mats, and made maker of sandals".
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Unread postby Wanghui » Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:25 am

Liao Zhen wrote:I believe that by far Liu Bei was the worst leader in some aspects. If you don't remeber he put strangers before his family, example Zhao Yun and Liu Chan. On numerous occations he betrayed men and still claimed he was righteous. The last reason why he was probably the worst leader was that if it was'nt for Zhuge Liang, or for that matter Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, Liu Bei would truly be the, "Base weaver of straw mats, and made maker of sandals".


I don't say that Liu Bei's a good leader but there's some confused thing in your opinion that I need comment :
1. Liu Chan is his own son, isn't he ?If you mean Liu Feng it's also not correct Liu Feng is his adopt son, isn't he ?So both of them are not stranger. I think good leader has to have ability to choose people whether it's from his own family or from stranger. Not every family is more capable and loyal than stranger, let's take your example Liu Feng/Liu Chan compare with Zhao Yun which one is more loyal and capable ? So for Zhao Yun's case Liu Bei is absolutely correct trust and put him in his kingdom.
2. You say Liu Bei betrayed man and claim that he was righteous. Can you proof that ?I mean in what case ?
3. From I know, Liu Bei is also ambitious man, he's not just want to be sandals maker. He leaves Caocao and Yuan Shao proof that and I also doubt about he doesn't want to take Jing and Yi province because they are his family's territories like the novel said
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