Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

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Best/Favourite of the Three Kingdoms?

Wei
139
34%
Shu
162
40%
Wu
108
26%
 
Total votes : 409

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:05 am

Morg wrote:Cao Cao became suspicious that there was a plot to assassinate him and so he investigated it, I don't think that indicates that he knew he was in the wrong.


Why would Cao Cao have been suspicious of a plot to assassinate him in the first place? Why did he feel the need to search a man who had just come out from talking to the emperor? He knew that his treatment of the emperor was wrong and that the emperor resented it, and thus he feared any unfavorable repercussions.

Morg wrote:I still don't buy it, I'm afraid. I don't see how anyone can see Cao Cao amassing power and defeating warlord after warlord and think "Gee, I know, I'll leave him alone for ages until he's even more powerful and then I'll try and beat him!" unless they are chronically short-sighted. Liu Bei was probably in the best position possible when he was at the capital, leaving Cao Cao to his own devices only made Xian and Xuande's position so much worse. Admittedly, Liu Bei was not able to see the future but it was fairly obvious that Cao Cao would obtain even more power and land.


Whether you buy it or not is up to you. I still do not believe that Liu Bei had enough power or ability at the capital to do anything to save Xian. A caged bird is hardly in any position to save, let alone help, another caged bird.

Morg wrote:I didn't say it did, I was simply pointing out that your hero is also flawed :P Your arguement revolves around Wei not being a legitimate continuation of the Han because Cao Cao oppressed the emperor and did some horrible things. I am pointing out that Liu Bei did horrible things too, but mis-deeds do not make a kingdom illigitimate.


First of all, Liu Bei is not my hero. :lol: Second of all, when did I ever say that Liu Bei was flawless or perfect? If I really believed that, I wouldn't even bother to have this discussion with you. You pointed out that Liu Bei killed a government official, but I pointed out that that official was corrupt. How was Xian corrupt? You can't just look at things on the surface level.

Morg wrote:Have you not read what happened to Shu? :wink: As I have said before, I think that Cao Cao initially worked with the emperor's interests at heart and then got carried away. You obviously disagree and you are welcome to, but I really think that it would have been disastrous for Xian to have final say.


Liu Shan may have been a dolt, but what proof is there that Xian was such as well or would have been? I still don't see why Cao Cao could not have been a loyal adviser to Xian and helped to reunite the country that way. Like I've asked before, did Cao Cao even try to offer good advice, but Xian turned a deaf ear or didn't care or had more interest in wine and women? If you can just write off a young emperor using speculation, then China may never have had one of its Greatest.

Morg wrote:It is admittedly guesswork on my part. Meng Huo's initial force is recorded in SGYY as one hundred thousand, so if each force he led against Shu featured that many warriors then you're looking at 700,000 warriors who were defeated by Shu. Add to that, civilian casualties (as previously quoted) and you get a pretty high number. Admittedly, millions was probably overstating (I thought the inital force was 200,000 and worked it out from there) but the number is probably around one million.


First of all, you'd be assuming that each time Meng Huo went against Shu, he had brand new soldiers every single time. You have to ask yourself: how likely is that? The answer is: extremely unlikely. Secondly, defeated is very different from killed. Meng Huo was defeated 7 times by Zhuge Liang. Does that mean he was killed seven times as well? :wink: Lastly, any civilian casualties are total guess work and not very reliable, I'm afraid.

Morg wrote:You seriously think that he was justified in that attack?


Yes.

Morg wrote:Yeah but my knowledge isn't as good as yours and you keep quoting stuff I don't know, so how am I supposed to defend myself without a little cheating? ;) To be fair, I thought the Nanman had revolted in the novel afterwards, but in fact it was before Zhuge "settled" the south and I didn't realise that until after my post. I know that historically they rebelled twice, but as you said that isn't fair to use.


Cheating is one thing, but getting caught is another. :wink:

Morg wrote:Once Dong Zhuo and his followers were out of the way, there wasn't anyone else to help Xian out. Cao Cao could have left him to it, but he didn't. Cao stayed with Xian and helped with affairs. Yes, he went too far, but who else could have helped Xian at the time? With the capital in pieces, someone had to take charge...


Helping the emperor take charge or guiding him wasn't an option?

Morg wrote:I know that the oath isn't supposed to be literal, but on many occasions after Guan Yu and Zhang Fei's deaths, Xuande talks about not being able to go on because of his oath. He seems to feel that he is breaking the oath by still living but can justify his existence until he gets revenge for his brothers.


If Liu Bei showed little or very shallow remorse, how would the audience buy him as the hero and loyal brother, right? :lol::wink:

Morg wrote:I don't see it as being likely (although obviously, I wasn't there). Guan Yu would have surprised Cao Cao so I don't see how Mengde could have taken a hostage in that timeframe.


It takes time to charge, does it not? And Cao Cao was in close proximity to the emperor, so I think he would have had time to react. We know how quickly Cao Cao thinks and acts. Just look at how quickly he turned an assassination attempt on Dong Zhuo into a presentation of a gift. :lol:

Morg wrote:Again, it's subjective. The novel stated that all gathered turned pale at Cao Cao's impertinence so presumably there were a great number of witnesses to Cao Cao's error....


Actually, I can confirm that the gathered were not close enough to get a real view because the officers were unable to see the true archer himself and assumed that the shooter was the emperor after seeing the royal arrow in the deer. Only when Cao Cao came forth to accept the congratulations did they realize their error, and thus, they turned pale. Pale from their incorrect assumption or otherwise is subjective.

Morg wrote:"Now Dong Zhuo's corpulence was such that he could not remain long sitting, so he rolled over couch and lay face inwards. "Now is the time," thought the assassin, and he gripped the good sword firmly. But just as Cao Cao was going to strike, Dong Zhuo happened to look up and in a mirror he saw the reflection of Cao Cao behind him with a sword in the hand."

Dong Zhuo was awake and Cao Cao knew his strike had to be fatal.


Sorry, I was going by the scene in the TV series where Dong Zhuo was asleep for awhile. I reread this section and I find it interesting that Cao Cao thought Dong Zhuo to be doomed once Lu Bu had left, but then planted seeds of doubt in his own mind when he was afraid to act. Cao Cao also should have known that Dong Zhuo trusted him enough to turn his back on him while laying down, and yet still, he could not act.

Morg wrote:You're missing the point. As you have said previously, it is stupid to give your life for no reason, and that is exactly what Cao Cao would have been doing if his blow had not killed Dong Zhuo outright. Let's look at the two outcomes here:

1. Cao Cao strikes Dong Zhuo down, Lu Bu seeks revenge on Mengde, Cao Cao is either killed or bribes Lu Bu and lives.

2. Cao Cao fails to kill Dong Zhuo and a struggle ensues. Lu Bu returns to find Dong Zhuo and Cao Cao fighting, Lu Bu kills Cao Cao. Dong Zhuo continues to rule the capital with only one difference: No Cao Cao.

Seriously, if you were Cao Cao, which option would you take?


You say so yourself that it's pointless to give your life for no reason and make all these excuses for why Cao Cao did not act to kill Dong Zhuo(i.e., all the possible things that could have gone wrong, and then what???), yet you keep saying that Liu Bei could/should have saved the emperor or didn't try hard enough, etc. This is why I brought this example up in the first place, to make you see that it's not that easy. I personally do not blame Cao Cao for failing in his assassination attempt, but I can argue that he should/could have killed Dong Zhuo with just as much logic as you've argued against Liu Bei.
As for your options here, why not number one? Dong Zhuo would be dead and in the worst possible scenario, would the life of Cao Cao be wasted after ridding the Han of a tyrant?

Morg wrote:I copied and pasted that from threekingdoms, so I think Liu Shan did (in their translation at least).


I know that it's in the translation, but Liu Shan was not the speaker. Again, please go back, reread carefully, and you will see what I mean.

Morg wrote:Now I am sure that I've read an essay by someone (Jon Wu, Sean Williams, Rafe or someone) about how Shu were not considered to be the heroes of the Three Kingdoms until much later (late Jin or early...uh the next dynasty)....


Perhaps the late Ming dynasty when the novel was written? I'd be interested in reading this essay, if you can find it. Thanks in advance!
At least the people of Shu thought of Kongming as their hero. Now who's a better judge of character and accomplishments than the people living under one's hegemony, no? Even if Cao Cao was looked upon as a hero of sorts, he was certainly not the only one of the era. :wink:

Morg wrote:Or because he wanted to keep his head...


I don't know about you, but I highly doubt that Liu Shan wanted the head of the man whom his father told him to look to as a father. :lol::wink:

Morg wrote:Absolutely, but I think that in Kongming we saw the first cracks that we never got to see in Cao Cao.


Pure and idle speculation.

Morg wrote:He didn't but who could he have picked? Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Bang or...uh a rock? :lol: Cao Cao was the only option and gave himself the title, which may not be the honourable thing to do, but let's face it, he would have gotten the title anyway.


Why not Zhao Yan or any of the advisors he was used to discussing the country's affairs with?

Morg wrote:So that makes it okay for him to disobey the Prime Minister of the Han?


The basically "self-appointed" PM of the Han who was corrupt and oppressing the emperor, yes. I mean, you seem to think it's okay for Liu Bei to just allow Guan Yu to go ahead and try to kill Cao Cao, the very same PM of the Han!

Morg wrote:I'm sorry but I don't see how. Where in SGYY does it say that the emperor wanted Liu Bei to leave? I know Liu Bei got scared by Cao Cao's talk of heroes, then got worried about Zhao Yun and finally asked Cao Cao if he could attack Yuan Shu. The emperor didn't order Xuande to attack Yuan Shu, Xuande suggested it to Cao Cao.


Doesn't Cao Cao's wise advisors advising him to keep Liu Bei close at bay, "locked in a cage", and not given command of anything say something about the situation? I mean, given that they were on Cao Cao's side, did they want Liu Bei to save the emperor? I think not.

As soon as Liu Bei reached his lodging, he set about preparations for immediate departure, taking his seal as General and preparing his weapons. Dong Cheng went three miles away from the city to bid him farewell.
"You must not mind my going. This journey will assuredly help on the scheme," said Liu Bei.
"Keep your mind fixed on that," said Dong Cheng, "and never forget what His Majesty requires of us."


Liu Bei replied, "I have been a bird in a cage, a fish in a net. This is like the fish regaining the open sea and the bird soaring into the blue sky.


Liu Bei could do nothing while in the capital. He could not build a base or spread his influences and that's why Cao Cao's advisors wanted to keep him there. Otherwise, why did they tell Cao Cao to recall Xuande?

Morg wrote:I disagree. I think that Cheng Yu knew that ordinarily the army would return despite the law but Liu Bei used the law as a reason to escape. It wasn't a literal thing but an observation by Cheng Yu.


We can't be sure that there was even such a law.

Morg wrote:I still question Liu Bei's ancestry. I've re-read the SGZ quote and there is no mention of how he is related to Liu Sheng, it just says that he was descended from Liu Shengs son. That could mean that he was directly related or a 3rd cousin four times removed :lol: Even the notes in his bio (which I've finally managed to access) don't explain the connection.


However you want to speculate about Liu Bei's ancestry, he was a descendent of the royal line. In the novel, his lineage was confirmed by the emperor himself. Cao Cao oppressed the emperor as PM of the Han and his son Cao Pi usurped the throne. Liu Bei setting out to restore the true Han is no less legit.

Morg wrote:What if Jiang Wei had taken a page out of Cao Cao's book and orchestrated it properly so that Liu Shan would have seen reason?


If everyone could just do what Cao Cao did, how would 3K have turned out? You'd be assuming here that Jiang Wei was the equal of Cao Cao in terms of ability, plus he had a lot to worry about on the military front, AND you'd be assuming that Liu Shan was someone who could be reasoned with. Good luck. :lol:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
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Lady Zhuge
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Unread postby Morg » Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:38 pm

Yay, my losing battle continues :D


Liu Shan may have been a dolt, but what proof is there that Xian was such as well or would have been? I still don't see why Cao Cao could not have been a loyal adviser to Xian and helped to reunite the country that way. Like I've asked before, did Cao Cao even try to offer good advice, but Xian turned a deaf ear or didn't care or had more interest in wine and women? If you can just write off a young emperor using speculation, then China may never have had one of its Greatest.

I didn't say that there was proof that Xian was an idiot. My point was that a man like Cao Cao may not have seen fit to pander to a man who he thought was unfit. All of Xian's aides, and Xian himself, were powerless against even Li Jue and his forces, so why would Cao Cao consider Xian capable?




First of all, you'd be assuming that each time Meng Huo went against Shu, he had brand new soldiers every single time. You have to ask yourself: how likely is that? The answer is: extremely unlikely. Secondly, defeated is very different from killed. Meng Huo was defeated 7 times by Zhuge Liang. Does that mean he was killed seven times as well? :wink: Lastly, any civilian casualties are total guess work and not very reliable, I'm afraid.

All fair points, so what would be your best guess to the number of tribesfolk that Zhuge Liang killed? Quarter of a million? One hundred thousand?


You seriously think that he was justified in that attack?


Yes.

So basically you're saying that if you attempt peace then you are justified in obliterating later? If Zhuge Liang was the noble person he was supposed to be then he would have found another way. He killed those people in a horrendous way because it was a show of force, 'Shock and Awe' if you will, in order to end the rebellion.


If Liu Bei showed little or very shallow remorse, how would the audience buy him as the hero and loyal brother, right? :lol::wink:

Exactly. Luo Guanzhong did a wonderful job of portraying Liu Bei as the man who would kill himself once he had avenged his brothers but I seriously doubt that he would have.



It takes time to charge, does it not? And Cao Cao was in close proximity to the emperor, so I think he would have had time to react. We know how quickly Cao Cao thinks and acts. Just look at how quickly he turned an assassination attempt on Dong Zhuo into a presentation of a gift. :lol:

I don't think it would have taken Guan Yu long to get to Mengde and cut him down, but again this line of thought is speculation that cannot be quantified.



Morg wrote:Again, it's subjective. The novel stated that all gathered turned pale at Cao Cao's impertinence so presumably there were a great number of witnesses to Cao Cao's error....


Actually, I can confirm that the gathered were not close enough to get a real view because the officers were unable to see the true archer himself and assumed that the shooter was the emperor after seeing the royal arrow in the deer. Only when Cao Cao came forth to accept the congratulations did they realize their error, and thus, they turned pale. Pale from their incorrect assumption or otherwise is subjective.

They were not close enough to see that Cao Cao fired the shot that killed the deer, but then he rode forth into the crowd's view (hence them all turning pale). If they could see Mengde and could realise their error then they'd be able to see a 7ft bearded guy cutting him down.



You say so yourself that it's pointless to give your life for no reason and make all these excuses for why Cao Cao did not act to kill Dong Zhuo(i.e., all the possible things that could have gone wrong, and then what???), yet you keep saying that Liu Bei could/should have saved the emperor or didn't try hard enough, etc.

Liu Bei made it his life's quest to restore the Han but he didn't do very much to try and achieve that. However, Cao Cao set out to get rid of Dong Zhuo and yes he hesitated and failed but he then called the alliance against Dong Zhuo. While that alliance failed, Cao Cao actively tried to accomplish his goal which is more than Liu Bei seemed to do.




As for your options here, why not number one? Dong Zhuo would be dead and in the worst possible scenario, would the life of Cao Cao be wasted after ridding the Han of a tyrant?

That is my point exactly. Cao Cao chose that option but when option 2 became more likely he abandoned his assassination attempt and regrouped.



Morg wrote:I copied and pasted that from threekingdoms, so I think Liu Shan did (in their translation at least).


I know that it's in the translation, but Liu Shan was not the speaker. Again, please go back, reread carefully, and you will see what I mean.

Crap. Okay it was the Empress Dowager who took offence to Kongming's actions but that still illustrates that Kongming was acting in an inappropriate manner.


Morg wrote:Or because he wanted to keep his head...


I don't know about you, but I highly doubt that Liu Shan wanted the head of the man whom his father told him to look to as a father. :lol::wink:

This is Liu Shan we're talking about.... :wink:


The basically "self-appointed" PM of the Han who was corrupt and oppressing the emperor, yes. I mean, you seem to think it's okay for Liu Bei to just allow Guan Yu to go ahead and try to kill Cao Cao, the very same PM of the Han!

No I don't, I said that Liu Bei would have allowed Guan Yu to kill Cao Cao if he was truly intent on saving the emperor. You've twisted my words there to fit your arguement.



Morg wrote:I'm sorry but I don't see how. Where in SGYY does it say that the emperor wanted Liu Bei to leave? I know Liu Bei got scared by Cao Cao's talk of heroes, then got worried about Zhao Yun and finally asked Cao Cao if he could attack Yuan Shu. The emperor didn't order Xuande to attack Yuan Shu, Xuande suggested it to Cao Cao.


Doesn't Cao Cao's wise advisors advising him to keep Liu Bei close at bay, "locked in a cage", and not given command of anything say something about the situation? I mean, given that they were on Cao Cao's side, did they want Liu Bei to save the emperor? I think not.

I didn't doubt that Cao Cao's advisors wanted to keep Liu Bei at the capital, I wanted you to prove that the emperor (who cried when his saviour left the capital) wanted Liu Bei to leave.


Liu Bei could do nothing while in the capital. He could not build a base or spread his influences and that's why Cao Cao's advisors wanted to keep him there. Otherwise, why did they tell Cao Cao to recall Xuande?

Liu Bei's statement that you quoted simply says that he was unhappy at the capital and was pleased to be free. Considering he feared for his life the whole time he was in the capital, it isn't exactly surprising that he was happy to leave. Nowhere in that passage does it say that the emperor wanted him to leave, just that Xuande was told to not forget his mission. Perhaps Dong Cheng was concerned that Xuande's leaving signified that Liu Bei was abandoning the emperor and that he (Cheng) felt compelled to give that reminder.

Whether for the emperor's long-term benefit or for his own, Liu Bei seems to be acting in the manner that he considers best despite what the emperor wants. Sound familiar?


However you want to speculate about Liu Bei's ancestry, he was a descendent of the royal line. In the novel, his lineage was confirmed by the emperor himself. Cao Cao oppressed the emperor as PM of the Han and his son Cao Pi usurped the throne. Liu Bei setting out to restore the true Han is no less legit.

Liu Bei's ancestry was so insignificant that his forefathers were given an area of land that generated no revenue and saw them become peasants. If he were close enough to royalty to make a difference then he wouldn't have been in that situation. I believe that Liu Bei was so far removed from royalty that his family wasn't even considered to be regal by the ruler of that time.




Morg wrote:What if Jiang Wei had taken a page out of Cao Cao's book and orchestrated it properly so that Liu Shan would have seen reason?


If everyone could just do what Cao Cao did, how would 3K have turned out? You'd be assuming here that Jiang Wei was the equal of Cao Cao in terms of ability, plus he had a lot to worry about on the military front, AND you'd be assuming that Liu Shan was someone who could be reasoned with. Good luck. :lol:

I never said that Jiang Wei was even capable of tying Cao Cao's shoes let alone being his equal :lol: My point is that if he had seized control of the state in a way that wouldn't have brought him into direct conflict with the Latter Ruler then he may have had more success. Whether Jiang Wei was capable of such a deed is pure speculation, but perhaps Kongming had left a rock with instructions on it lying around for Jiang Wei to find at an appropriate time :lol:
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:47 am

Morg wrote:Yay, my losing battle continues :D


Hehe, to be fair, I did offer a nice leisurely discussion via IM, but you declined. Therefore, it should be of no surprise that you had this coming. :lol::wink:

Morg wrote:I didn't say that there was proof that Xian was an idiot. My point was that a man like Cao Cao may not have seen fit to pander to a man who he thought was unfit. All of Xian's aides, and Xian himself, were powerless against even Li Jue and his forces, so why would Cao Cao consider Xian capable?


The key words here are a man like Cao Cao may not have seen fit...why does everything have to revolve around the man named Cao Cao? Just because he did what "he saw fit" does not mean what he did was moral or right. Otherwise, with your kind of logic, we can excuse the actions of bullies by making everything revolve around them. Hey, the squirts are small and are meant to be picked on because a person like me sees it fit to do so. We can excuse the actions of rapists and murderers by making everything revolve around them. Hey, that girl let me rape her, so I did. Those people were powerless to stop me from killing them and robbing their homes. So I did. :roll:
The fact is, you have NO PROOF that Xian was incapable of being a good emperor or that he would not have listened to Cao Cao's "honest to goodness" advice for the good of the country. Corrupt officials like Ao Bai believed young Kangxi to be incapable as well, but guess what? They were DEAD wrong. 61 years of rule prove that. Xian never got the chance, so it's pure speculation that he would have been a bad emperor.

Morg wrote:All fair points, so what would be your best guess to the number of tribesfolk that Zhuge Liang killed? Quarter of a million? One hundred thousand?


I fail to see what guesswork based upon some unsubstantiated numbers from the novel would prove.

Morg wrote:So basically you're saying that if you attempt peace then you are justified in obliterating later? If Zhuge Liang was the noble person he was supposed to be then he would have found another way. He killed those people in a horrendous way because it was a show of force, 'Shock and Awe' if you will, in order to end the rebellion.


If Zhuge Liang was all about a show of force, why would he have given Meng Huo all those chances before finally resorting to the fire attack??? It does not bode well for you to keep shoving that very significant fact under the rug.

Morg wrote:Exactly. Luo Guanzhong did a wonderful job of portraying Liu Bei as the man who would kill himself once he had avenged his brothers but I seriously doubt that he would have.


You're entitled to whatever doubts that you may have.

Morg wrote:I don't think it would have taken Guan Yu long to get to Mengde and cut him down, but again this line of thought is speculation that cannot be quantified.


Well, I would give Cao Cao a bit more credit than Yan Liang, but it's up to you. :lol:
There were so many factors as well as possible repercussions to consider and I believe Liu Bei made the right call to hold Guan Yu back. A hasty act of adrenaline does not guarantee that it's the right one or that there would be a successful outcome.

Morg wrote:Again, it's subjective. The novel stated that all gathered turned pale at Cao Cao's impertinence so presumably there were a great number of witnesses to Cao Cao's error....


I don't believe that it says specifically that all turned pale at Cao Cao's impertinence. They all turned pale when Cao Cao came forth to accept the congratulations. Did they turn such a shade upon realizing their own error at having assumed that the royal arrow had been shot by the emperor or did they think Cao Cao was taking credit for what they all thought the emperor had done or what...?

Morg wrote:They were not close enough to see that Cao Cao fired the shot that killed the deer, but then he rode forth into the crowd's view (hence them all turning pale). If they could see Mengde and could realise their error then they'd be able to see a 7ft bearded guy cutting him down.


I don't see your point. When did I say anything about the crowd being able to see or not see Guan Yu cutting Cao Cao down? It would be an assumption in the first place that Guan Yu would have been successful anyways. The original reference was toward the people being able to see Cao Cao's indignity towards the emperor and whose side the viewers were really on.

Morg wrote:Liu Bei made it his life's quest to restore the Han but he didn't do very much to try and achieve that. However, Cao Cao set out to get rid of Dong Zhuo and yes he hesitated and failed but he then called the alliance against Dong Zhuo. While that alliance failed, Cao Cao actively tried to accomplish his goal which is more than Liu Bei seemed to do.


Liu Bei did do a lot to try and restore the Han. He may have been helpless to try and save the emperor from Cao Cao's control-freak clutches, but that was not the only route. Cao Cao may have set out to get rid of Dong Zhuo, but he basically just supplanted his position afterwards, at least in his taking over and treatment of the emperor.

Morg wrote:That is my point exactly. Cao Cao chose that option but when option 2 became more likely he abandoned his assassination attempt and regrouped.


I can just as well argue that option 2 became more likely because of Cao Cao's own hesitation and planting of seeds of doubt into his own mind. The value of his life was more important than ridding the Han of the tyrant. Just as Liu Bei had little chance while at the capital and left to group, Cao Cao didn't believe he had a good chance of succeeding at killing Dong Zhuo, so he abandoned his attempt to "regroup".

Morg wrote:Crap. Okay it was the Empress Dowager who took offence to Kongming's actions but that still illustrates that Kongming was acting in an inappropriate manner.


She said it sounded to her like Kongming wasn't taking on the role that Liu Bei had given him, but how much does she know about the affairs of the court? How often does she participate? And, it turns out that her conclusion based upon what she had heard was incorrect.

Morg wrote:This is Liu Shan we're talking about.... :wink:


If Liu Shan wanted Kongming dead or was displeased by him or offended by his alleged rudeness, please provide some evidence.

Morg wrote:No I don't, I said that Liu Bei would have allowed Guan Yu to kill Cao Cao if he was truly intent on saving the emperor. You've twisted my words there to fit your arguement.


I don't see how I've twisted your words at all. You just dislike the fact that your very own words and logic have been used against you. You're the one who was questioning Liu Bei's refusal to adhere orders from the Prime Minister of the Han, Cao Mengde, were you not? You made a big deal about Cao Cao being the PM and all, in trying to make Zhuge Liang look bad for following Liu Shan's order to retreat. You didn't seem to care that Liu Bei basically knew why he was being called back(recall Cao Cao's advisors) and that the only way he could help re-establish the Han was to set up a solid base elsewhere and away from the capital.
Is disobeying this corrupt PM's orders a more severe breech of the rules than killing him(this is even assuming that there would have been success, as well as once again conveniently forgoing all that could have gone wrong)?

Morg wrote:Liu Bei's statement that you quoted simply says that he was unhappy at the capital and was pleased to be free. Considering he feared for his life the whole time he was in the capital, it isn't exactly surprising that he was happy to leave. Nowhere in that passage does it say that the emperor wanted him to leave, just that Xuande was told to not forget his mission. Perhaps Dong Cheng was concerned that Xuande's leaving signified that Liu Bei was abandoning the emperor and that he (Cheng) felt compelled to give that reminder.


Can you blame Liu Bei for fearing for his life? Cao Cao said so himself that he did not fear Liu Bei and had him totally under his control(chapter 20). What could Liu Bei do to save the emperor in such a position? Liu Bei's leaving was to help in "the scheme" that he had discussed with Dong Cheng about earlier(chapter 21).

Xian's secret letter to Liu Bei includes this: "You are a high minister of state and my own relative. You must recall the difficulties of the Great Founder's early days and draw together the loyal and right-minded to destroy this evil faction and restore the prerogatives of the Throne. Such a deed would be indeed an extreme joy to the spirits of my ancestors."
Considering that less than 10 people signed the pact to help the emperor, do you think such a group can do anything to even make a dent on Cao Cao's spreading influence at the capital? Of course Liu Bei had to go elsewhere to seek more "loyal and right-minded" people that Xian referred to in his mandate. I don't see how he was doing anything against the emperor's will like Cao Cao obviously did.

Morg wrote:Whether for the emperor's long-term benefit or for his own, Liu Bei seems to be acting in the manner that he considers best despite what the emperor wants. Sound familiar?


While the emperor obviously hated being oppressed and most likely hated the fact that Cao Cao killed his wife as well as his children and close advisors, but where does it say that the emperor wanted Liu Bei to stay at the capital with him?

Morg wrote:Liu Bei's ancestry was so insignificant that his forefathers were given an area of land that generated no revenue and saw them become peasants. If he were close enough to royalty to make a difference then he wouldn't have been in that situation. I believe that Liu Bei was so far removed from royalty that his family wasn't even considered to be regal by the ruler of that time.


Your speculation about Liu Bei's lineage is no more reliable than my own. However, what have you got to say about the founder of Han, Liu Bang??? He was the first peasant emperor of China. My point: Liu Bei's family becoming peasants doesn't necessarily take away from his being regal or not regal, nor does it diminish his claim to the throne.

Morg wrote:I never said that Jiang Wei was even capable of tying Cao Cao's shoes let alone being his equal :lol: My point is that if he had seized control of the state in a way that wouldn't have brought him into direct conflict with the Latter Ruler then he may have had more success. Whether Jiang Wei was capable of such a deed is pure speculation, but perhaps Kongming had left a rock with instructions on it lying around for Jiang Wei to find at an appropriate time :lol:


Your first two sentences here are contradictory. One cannot achieve what he is incapable of achieving, even if it's something that he really, really desires to achieve. Now apply that to Jiang Wei. If Jiang Wei had been able to seize control of the state in that perfectly balanced way that you speak of, he really would be almost on par with Mengde. :wink::lol:
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Unread postby Elven Fury » Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:03 pm

Im a Shuist all the way, by far in the early three kingdoms period it was Cao Cao and the Sun family. But once Liu Bei got Zhuge Liang the tables turned and Shu became the most "feared"/ powerful kingdom. i think everything started to go bad for Shu with the death of Guan Yu, which led to Yi Ling and then the death of Zhang Fei and Liu Bei, and Shu finally fell with the Death of Zhuge Liang. But i feel if these events had not happened so soon Shu would have won. but not to leave out Wei and Wu Wei had Sima Yi and Deng Ai, two great generals. and Wu had fearless generals such and Gan Ning and Huang Gai and Zhou Tai, they also had the Talents of Zhou Yu and Lu Xun, which also made them a formisable opponent... so for me my list of most powerful/favorite kingdoms its 1. Shu 2. Wu 3.Wei... but thats just me i guess...
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Unread postby Lord Sun Ce » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:12 am

Wu is the best. They may not have had the most success but they are the best. the fire attacks and the defection ploys (zhou Fang) and such. The best nuff said
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Unread postby Chibichan » Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:43 am

Best: Wei...

My personal favorite: Wu... because of the officers and their high defense that kept them alive for quite some time, even after Sun Quan died (they were destined to crumble after Sun Quan died...).
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Unread postby BlueDragon » Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:30 pm

Yay! At last some people acknoweldge Wu! Anyway, if you havent guessed, I'm supporting Wu all the way (I know my username is accosiated with Shu but I could'nt think of anything else). Back to the point, Wu had great generals and stratiegists (though not on par with Zhuge Liang) and held up well through the three kingdoms period.
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:41 pm

BlueDragon wrote:Yay! At last some people acknoweldge Wu! Anyway, if you havent guessed, I'm supporting Wu all the way (I know my username is accosiated with Shu but I couldn't think of anything else).

Actually the Shu representation is a Green Dragon not blue.

Anyway, I'm a Shuist and so you can guess who I think is my personal favourite. But Wei is as good as if not a little bit better than Shu, although I don't like admitting it.
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Unread postby PangDeGuy » Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:23 pm

My favorite kingdom would depend on what point of view you see it from.

San Guo Yan Yi p.o.v:

Shu- The troops are pretty keen after Zhuge Liang's training. The strategists and advisors are great, like Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, and Fa Zheng (I'm not very sure what Fa Zheng did since I haven't read the novel in a while, but I'm pretty sure he did something important). Shu's warriors are top-notch (Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, Huang Zhong, Zhao Yun, etc.) Shu actually could of united the Three Kingdoms if Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong would've lived longer.

San Guo Zhi p.o.v:

Wei- Cao Cao was a brilliant leader, and an excellent one, and was only portrayed as a villain in SGYY. He showed his capability in the war against Yuan Shao, defeating an enemy that vastly outnumbered him. Thus Wei's leader is good. Guo Jia, Xun Wenruo, Cheng Yu, and many more advisors were the brains of Wei, thus Wei's strategists are good. Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Xu Chu, Dian Wei, and many more we great warriors of Wei, and Zhang Liao was a pretty smart one also. Thus Wei's warriors are good.

:D
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:33 pm

Wei is my favorite kingdom, and probably always will be. The influence that one man can get by a simple flip of his wrist is rather amazing. Cao Cao was quite influencial, though somewhat hasty. For a leader, he had the brains to(exaggeration) almost even out with Zhuge Liang. In Chi Bi he supposedly knew that ambushes were happening, yet he did nothing to stop them.

On an officers note, I'd like to point out Zhang Liao. This one could defend He Fei with a fraction of Sun Quan's army. He struck fear into the hearts of nearly everyone he met.

But the only thing that I can't stand is the humiliating deaths of the Wei officers. There were some graceful deaths(ex: Dian Wei) but most of them involved dying off the feild. Zhang Liao takes an arrow to the loins, which must be painful, and then dies later on. Xu Huang gets arrowed in the head, Xu Zhu dies of sickness, Pang De is executed, Zhang He is arrowed, Xiahou Yuan gets halved, and the list goes on. Some of the deaths are more than sad.

The advisors, though not matching with Kongming, were cunning and intelligent. Who can forget Guo Jia's act in the North? Xun Yu put forth many points that built the foundation of Wei, such as his cunning at Guandu. There was also Sima Yi and Deng Ai who fooled Teacher and Apprentice after a long while. Deng Ai was amazing in so many ways actually, Zhuge Liang probably couldn't match to this one's cunning.
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