Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

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Best/Favourite of the Three Kingdoms?

Wei
133
33%
Shu
161
40%
Wu
107
27%
 
Total votes : 401

Unread postby Guan Suo » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:15 pm

I Would say Wei is the best kingdom, followed by Wu and then Shu.

I dont like Shu at all...now, what i dont see anymroe is why would someone go to great lenghths to "restore" a govement that was ssooo corrupt that it caused mass suffering which led to a great upriseing(Yellow Turban). i believe it as a sin to want this kind of government back.

Wei however brought prosperity to the people(dont get me wrong as Wu and Shu did aswell but if Shu actully did "restore" the Han, whats to say it wont be corrupt again?) and Cao Cao/Pi/Rui were strong leaders and did not get pushed about too much by officals and kept to their goals. the Corrupt were dealt with as they wernt in the Han. Wei's upriseings where from treacherous people like Meng Da and Sima Yan.

Cao Cao didnt beat about the bush to get what he wanted and this is what made him the most powerfull ruler of the period.Sun Quan did what he had to do...eventully. and Shu just hid behind "honour" which in my mind leads to nothing infact themselves it didnt mean much even if thats what it stood for. Liu Bei betrayed more people then Lu Bu(Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Zong,Liu Zhang and Sun Quan) and only attacked when peoples backs were turned(Liu Zhang, Cao Cao,when Liu Bei rebeled against Cao) he only got Jing through desception and after he used it to gain Yi and his promise to Sun Quan to give Jing back after Liu Qi died, he still didnt give it back. Shu deserved Wu's attack on Jing, i find it hypicritical that Shu would be really annoyed with Wu's "backstabbing" when Shu backstabbed ssoooo many more times.
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Unread postby Asellas » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:53 pm

I am going with Wu and my Auntie Wu never forced me to agree :P and I like them because of their talent, their ambition and because they didn't use many cheap strategies like Wei or Shu by making people defect excluding the Nanman campaign Wu always tried to win the hearts and make people join of their own free will even though when people refused they put them to death like Guan Yu.

I also find their victories and battle interesting than Wei's or Shu's...
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Wu all the way

Unread postby Sun Zhongmou » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:35 am

Wu, followed by Wei and then Shu.

Reasons for liking Wu?

1. I like the Sun family. They are probably some of the most talented individuals in the Sanguo era. Sun Jian is brave and mighty. Sun Ce is a great conqueror type. Sun Quan is a tiger-fighter, brilliant politician and great administrator. Sun Shang Xiang is a tomboy princess.

2. I like the Wu generals. They are also some of the most talented individuals in the Sanguo era. Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Lu Su, Taishi Ci, Gan Ning etc etc. They also have achievements of note, unlike most of the fictionalised achievements of Shu generals.

3. It's a southern kingdom. My ancestors came from the south and I can identify with Wu.

4. Wu has the best location in all the three kingdoms. A beautiful piece of real estate if you think about it.

5. Wu is the coolest. :D
Last edited by Sun Zhongmou on Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:05 pm

My fav kingdom is Shu! Shu all the Way Baby! u can say i'm been influence by the Propaganda! I mean You will alway remember Shu! I mean With Legendary people like Zhuge Liang,Guan YU and Zilong!
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:51 pm

Asellas wrote:I am going with Wu and my Auntie Wu never forced me to agree :P

Excellent. :twisted:

Sun Zhongmou wrote:I like the Wu generals. They are among some of the most talented individuals in the Sanguo era. Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Lu Su, Taishi Ci, Gan Ning etc etc. They also have achievements of note, unlike most of the fictionalised achievements of Shu generals.

The diversity and overall radness of Wu generals are due to Sun Quan's far-seeing HR strategies. Like Cao Cao, Sun Quan was able to employ a wide range of officers from different family backgrounds (highest of the high like Zhang Zhao, Zhou Yu, Gu Yong, Lu Su, etc, to the lowest of the low such as Zhou Tai and Pan Zhang). Like Liu Bei, Sun Quan was also able to have close personal relationships with his officers and inspire them to dedicate their lives to him. However, Sun Quan tolerated people who held different opinions far more than Cao Cao did (ah, I hear you cry, "Gongsun Yuan! The Crown Prince affair!" But consider how many people and their families were executed by Cao Cao because they were suspicious in some way, or because they spoke out against Cao's ambition), and was able to overlook shortcomings in order to let his officers achieve their potential (consider all those people killed/exiled by Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang because their behaviour or speech was inappropriate). Therefore, talents in Wu flourished even though it has started off being the most improvished part of the empire. :D

Hmm... I guess this thread is about the kingdom not just the ruler... so I'll just add that Wu politics is also to be admired--a no-namer in Han officialdom managed to build a kingdom that survived internal tribal rebellions and external attacks (think Chibi and Yiling) to become the longest-lasting kingdom. Their balanced approach to engineering, agriculture, techonological and cultural development also built a strong southern China on which many subsequent dynasties would stop and catch their breath and hold on for a bit before being crushed by the north. There's just too much about Wu that's interesting... but I'll stop here... but you'll hear more of me around :twisted:
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Unread postby overlord of the Jin » Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:00 pm

Was there really a "best kingdom"? I don't think so. Each had its glory, its talented officers and rulers (the formers :!: ), its great politics and strategies. They reached a period they were all equally matched (before kongming's death I think). The only reason of Jin's victory is that after a century of wars the need of peace and unity was very urgent and as LGZ says in the opening of his novel: "Domains under heaven, after a long period of division, tends to unite; after a long period of union, tends to divide. This has been so since antiquity." Wei/Jin's situation was anyway better than Shu Han's and Wu's just because it was larger and more populated than the other two. -Chaos/division generates heros (Cao,Liu,Sun etc); -heros are the protagonists of the hardly fighted peace/union; -peace/union after a long time generates idiots ( last Han emperors); -idiots generate chaos back again (as you know)... After a century of wars, heros "were not more available" and the only factor that decided who the winner should be was, as I previously said, the economic situation. Has to be said that Wu, after the defeat of Shu Han, weakened its defences and ALMOST resigned itself to its fate. Don't forget this is only my poor opinion, and it only awaits to be crushed down by your surely-stronger argumentations.
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Unread postby Marc » Sun Jan 18, 2004 9:03 pm

Guan Suo wrote:I dont like Shu at all...now, what i dont see anymroe is why would someone go to great lenghths to "restore" a govement that was ssooo corrupt that it caused mass suffering which led to a great upriseing(Yellow Turban). i believe it as a sin to want this kind of government back.


The Han court only descended into corruption just before and more so after the Yellow Scarves' uprising, and Liu Bei wanted to restore the Han to it's former glory, before Emperor Ling died. So therefore, you could say Shu was the only kingdom fighting for something other than personal gain. Yep, I'm a Shu-ist. :twisted:
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Unread postby Jon » Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:28 pm

Just before as in a little less(or possibly more) than 100 years before the rebellion?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:48 am

overlord of the Jin wrote:Was there really a "best kingdom"? I don't think so. Each had its glory, its talented officers and rulers (the formers :!: ), [.....]

Another excellent post. It is indeed difficult to objectively judge which kingdom was the best, since each kingdom had its ups and downs, different people, different circumstances. I guess this is more of a subjective thread (since it's best *or* favourite kingdom :wink: ). Wu is my favourite kingdom but I would never claim that it's the strongest out of the three.

Has to be said that Wu, after the defeat of Shu Han, weakened its defences and ALMOST resigned itself to its fate. Don't forget this is only my poor opinion, and it only awaits to be crushed down by your surely-stronger argumentations.

I would have to resign to fate and acknowledge that what you said is true. I don't think the weakening of defences was deliberate, but rather a result of internal strife and the decreasing number of talented individuals. After Shu fell, the situation was hopeless--Wei/Jin not only almost recovered from the early warring years, but after absorbing Shu's forces, became an unassailable foe. Furthermore, the survival of Wu has always depended on the Yangtze River, but Wei/Jin by conquering Shu had captured the upriver region. Lu Kang held out for his lifetime (he died at the age of 46 or something?), but in a petition to the emperor, he acknowledged how hopeless they were: "We have not an ally to help us from without, nor do we possess the strength of Xiang Yu from within.... Yet, the counsellors are complacent, taking comfort in having the long River and the rugged mountains to protect our borders. This is of little importance--holding onto our country--and not [an attitude] that the wise would advocate!" (hmmm now that I copy&pasted this I'm not sure I liked the way I had translated it). Anyway, the general opinion was that they really had no chance, but they shouldn't submit... just yet...
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Unread postby Master Kongming » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:48 am

I really like the kingdom of Wei, as they had things the other kngdoms did not. For one, I think Cao Cao's Rise to power is one of the more interesting area's of the book and Strategy and Might in one is a good package.

Wei was the largest of the kingdoms, and the most powerful by far. Only the combined might of the 2 other kingdoms held them in check.
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