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If Shan Fu helped Cao Cao

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:15 pm
by Separation Anxiety
What do you think would happen if instead of Shan Fu refusing to devise a stratagem for Cao Cao, he helped him to the fullest of his abilities. Personally I think that Shan Fu would have told Cao about the boats being tied together and Cao would have thus won at the battle of Chi Bi and nearly totally annihilated Wu.

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:04 am
by Six_and_Up
Lets see if Shan Fu had helped Cao Cao, the events following would've changed so much it'd be nearly impossible to predict wat happens. Intially the battle of Chibi would've completely changed or maybe would've never happened. Cuse Shan Fu helping Cao Cao would have probably provoked Liu Bei into taking Jingzhou and thus Zhuge Liang repelling Cao Cao's army from Jingzhou. The Wu-Shu alliance may never happen and as a result it could see Liu Bei making a direct attack on Wu while there busy fighting Cao Cao on the front lines.

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:42 pm
by Li Ruiyue
Obviously Cao Cao would've triumped over Shu and Wu, and Shan Fu's advice (if he did give out advice to Cao Cao) would've helped Cao Cao secure all of China, i think.

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:11 pm
by GenFusha
:?: Shan Fu is Xu Shu right? If so.... heck yes, Cao Cao
would have dominated. Having Sima Yi and Xu Shu >>>>>>
having Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang.

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:00 pm
by Lu Wei
Yes Shan Fu is Xu Shu. Basically that would have been it for Liu Bei and Sun Quan. If they lost at Chi Bi it would have been pretty much over.

Xu Shu

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:54 am
by Cao Zijian
What you guys say got me wondering...

You guys might have already know the only reason Xu Shu went over to Wei was because his mum was held as hostage by Cao Cao. Imagine yourself as a strategist, what is the point of paying you if you do not contribute at all.

Quoting from Xu Shu, " As long as I am alive, I shall devise no strategies for the likes of Cao Cao"

If I were Cao Cao, I would assume 'yang hu wei huan; rearing tiger is a danger' and have Xu Shu executed! :wink:

Re: Xu Shu

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:09 am
by Kong Wen
Cao Zijian wrote:What you guys say got me wondering...

You guys might have already know the only reason Xu Shu went over to Wei was because his mum was held as hostage by Cao Cao. Imagine yourself as a strategist, what is the point of paying you if you do not contribute at all.

Quoting from Xu Shu, " As long as I am alive, I shall devise no strategies for the likes of Cao Cao"

If I were Cao Cao, I would assume 'yang hu wei huan; rearing tiger is a danger' and have Xu Shu executed! :wink:


Cao Cao knew that Xu Shu was useless as a strategist after his mother died, but he also knew that his pride would prevent him from ever returning to Liu Bei, etc... (Cao was a good judge of character, I suppose). Letting Xu Shu wallow around was good because Cao didn't have to worry about any negative popular sentiment from executing him. He also had an intimidating name on his roster (Zhuge Liang said that Cao had great men working for him), because most people just knew he was brilliant and didn't know he had essentially taken himself out of service.

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:17 am
by Jiang Zhi
GenFusha wrote::?: Shan Fu is Xu Shu right? If so.... heck yes, Cao Cao
would have dominated. Having Sima Yi and Xu Shu >>>>>>
having Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang.


I don't think Sima Yi was on the roster until much later......after Cao Cao's death at least! The dominant advisors then were Xun Yu, Xun You, Cheng Yu, and Man Chong I think......since Guo Jia was dead already and Jia Xu was just starting - she wasn't at the top yet

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:15 am
by Lady Wu
I don't think having an extra strategist would give Cao Cao much more of an edge over Liu Bei and Sun Quan. Unlike the other two, Cao Cao is quite independent, and rather than using his think-tank to come up with plans for him, he uses them to confirm his plans. Perhaps Xu Shu, if he was so smart, would have warned Cao Cao against going to war with Sun Quan at Chibi. Well, Jia Xu did tell him not to do it, but did he listen? Cao Cao had a plan to dominate the world, and conquering Wu was the crucial move to him. He needed advisors who could confirm that he could do it, and help him out when he's at it.

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:18 pm
by Kong Wen
Lady Wu wrote:I don't think having an extra strategist would give Cao Cao much more of an edge over Liu Bei and Sun Quan. Unlike the other two, Cao Cao is quite independent, and rather than using his think-tank to come up with plans for him, he uses them to confirm his plans. Perhaps Xu Shu, if he was so smart, would have warned Cao Cao against going to war with Sun Quan at Chibi. Well, Jia Xu did tell him not to do it, but did he listen? Cao Cao had a plan to dominate the world, and conquering Wu was the crucial move to him. He needed advisors who could confirm that he could do it, and help him out when he's at it.


What you say is true! However, there is a difference between Jia Xu's warning and a potential warning from Xu Shu, because Xu Shu was there and witnessed the scheming. If Xu Shu had decided to open his mouth and betray Pang Tong's plans, Cao would have listened.

Which raises an interesting question: Would Cao have believed Xu Shu? Or would he have thought Xu Shu was being deceptive and trying to trick him in order to benefit Liu Bei?