If Shan Fu helped Cao Cao

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Unread postby Frank » Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:41 pm

Yeah, I agree. I think it was because of the defeat Cao Cao was handed by Liu Bei when "Shan Fu" was in Liu Bei's camp. It was a very impressive strategy, and it gave Cao Cao a pretty decent defeat. When Cao Cao heard of Xu Shu, he asked Xun Yu to compare him to Xu Shu. Xun Yu replied with something that really flattered Xu Shu, so Cao Cao knew he needed him. He didn't care if Xu Shu didn't serve him, just so long as he didn't serve Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Fumoffu » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:30 pm

Prime Minister Cao wrote:Yeah, I agree. I think it was because of the defeat Cao Cao was handed by Liu Bei when "Shan Fu" was in Liu Bei's camp. It was a very impressive strategy, and it gave Cao Cao a pretty decent defeat. When Cao Cao heard of Xu Shu, he asked Xun Yu to compare him to Xu Shu. Xun Yu replied with something that really flattered Xu Shu, so Cao Cao knew he needed him. He didn't care if Xu Shu didn't serve him, just so long as he didn't serve Liu Bei.


Not to nitpick, but it was Cheng Yu who told Cao Cao that Xu Shu was ten times the advisor Cheng Yu was.
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Unread postby Frank » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:36 pm

... oh. Whoops! Well, I still believe that Cheng Yu is a rather good advisor. So, ten times better than him is still very good.
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Unread postby Lafeel » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:38 pm

Yea. But Cao Cao already had all the advisors he needed, exept maybe another Guo Jia. But he must have known such dirty methods would mean that Xu Shu'd never forgive, nor forget, him for it.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:09 pm

Maybe if his mother was wei-ist he would help cao,

and if he did i think Shan Fu would be like the zhuge liang of wei, abd probably taken alot of the rivers lands, so when zhuge liang showed up it would be too late.
also i think i wouldn't have noticed Zhou yu's fire attack at the red cliffs and done something to turn the events in cao's favour
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Unread postby Zhao Yun_ » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:31 am

i don't think it would have mattered if Xu Shu helped him/saw through the ploy and told Cao Cao there are 2 reasons for this:

1)Xu Shu had joined him relativly recently and also only because of his mother being taken hostage-so i doubt Cao Cao would have trusted him Cao would have most likely thought Xu Shu was trying to make him fall into some ploy of Liu bei's and ignoe him/through him in jail.

2)Cao Cao was too damn arrogant-unless im much mistaken some other advisor just before the battle warns him about a fire attack and Cao Cao runs the guy through with his sword-so my belief is unless Guo Jia suggested the change in plans i don't think Cao Cao would listen.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:20 pm

yean but if more than one commander pointed it out, one of which was shan fu he may have listened or maybe exposed pang tong when we told cao about the chain idea
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Unread postby Lafeel » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:41 pm

barbarosso wrote:yean but if more than one commander pointed it out, one of which was shan fu he may have listened or maybe exposed pang tong when we told cao about the chain idea

Doubt it. Cao Cao was himself one of the greatest strategists of the era, and he himself couldn't see that the chaining plan was false. Why should he listen to anyone that said otherwise? It actually wasn't that bad a strategy, under normal circumstances.
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Unread postby Iain » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:10 pm

barbarosso wrote:yean but if more than one commander pointed it out, one of which was shan fu he may have listened or maybe exposed pang tong when we told cao about the chain idea
I dont think one more person pointing out advice would have helped Cao Cao at Chi Bi really he had an entire army of advisors and strategists telling him what was right and more voices would just give him more people to ignore too. :wink:

Or would Cao Cao just have someone else to blame here for his own blindness.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:17 pm

You misundersatand what i'm saying is that since Shan fu had proven himself while fighting for lui bei, if some with such great ability and that other guy (can't rememenber name) said to Cao Cao then he might see the errors of his way. Also maybe if zhuge liang knew that wei had Shan fu he might not have sent Pang Tong over encase Shan fu saw through his plan
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