If Shan Fu helped Cao Cao

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Unread postby EERman » Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:30 pm

i think cao cao would not believe xu shu because of his faith to liu bei. if xu shu did something to prove he wasn't faithful to liu bei anymore but to cao cao, then i think he would listen to him. do you think that xu shu wuould cooperate if his mother did?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:56 pm

EERman wrote:i think cao cao would not believe xu shu because of his faith to liu bei. if xu shu did something to prove he wasn't faithful to liu bei anymore but to cao cao, then i think he would listen to him. do you think that xu shu wuould cooperate if his mother did?


No, I think if Xu Shu's mother cooperated, he would probably say something to her indicating loyalty to Liu Bei, and Cao Cao would sniff him out and have him executed. He was really in a no-win situation. Well, apart from not returning to Liu Bei after the death of his mother. That was his own stupid fault.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:31 pm

He didn't return to his Liu Bei after his mother died because he respected his mother and had shamed her, and it would have been the same shame if he would have returned. First he deserts Liu Bei because he got the forged letter. He couldn't desert Cao Cao with out becoming more ashamed of himself. And in that time honor was very important. After all his mother comitted suicide out of shame, and out of not wanting to remain with Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:44 am

Kong Zhengshu wrote: However, there is a difference between Jia Xu's warning and a potential warning from Xu Shu, because Xu Shu was there and witnessed the scheming. If Xu Shu had decided to open his mouth and betray Pang Tong's plans, Cao would have listened.

Umm.. no. Xu Shu went over to the north before anybody thought of engaging in naval battle against Cao Cao. He only deduced of the plot when Pang Tong showed up as the guest strategist of the day in the Cao camp.

*Even* if he did have incredible foresight and knew of Pang Tong's plans, or he found out about it first hand, and told Cao Cao, I highly doubt Cao would listen. Think about it. Cao Cao had just met with Pang Tong, Pang Tong suggested this chain business, Cao Cao agreed it's the coolest thing on earth. Ok. In comes Xu Shu. "Hey, that's a stupid idea! They're going to burn us all!" Now how's Cao Cao going to react?

First, he'd get pretty pissed at someone calling an idea stupid, while he had just approved of it. He'd also be embarassed by being fooled. And looking at what he did with the Cai Mao, he doesn't look like the kind of person who would admit that he erred. Chances are he'd carry on.

If it were Guo Jia or Xun Yu or someone he trusted, maybe. But here's someone who has his mother's death between him and Cao Cao. That someone like that would make a suggestion at the crucial moment is suspicious. Cao wouldn't have believed him.

Let's say Xu Shu was dumb enough to explain that he was communicating with the enemy and found out about the plot... well, this last option is hardly worth considering because (a) I have more respect for him than that, and (b) communicating with the enemy is punishable by death. So much for that.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:05 pm

Technically he wasnt communicating with the enemy because Pang Tong just proposed a plan to Cao. If Shan Fu had told Cao Cao that Pang Tong was simply a traitor and was working with Wu and Shu, then his idea of the chained ships wouldnt be used, and Cao Cao would have no one to blame but himself for being fooled. Also the death of his mother may be between he and Cao, but it was still a suicide. Also, Shan Fu was the type of person who did not like disgrace. First he disgraced himself and mother by going to Cao Cao. He would not even further disgrace himself by leaving Cao Cao. He even said something in the novel to that effect.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:07 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Also, Shan Fu was the type of person who did not like disgrace. First he disgraced himself and mother by going to Cao Cao. He would not even further disgrace himself by leaving Cao Cao. He even said something in the novel to that effect.


I know that was the reason that was given, but if you ask me (and people in logic courses), it is pretty poor reasoning. Leaving Cao Cao could be seen by many as a vindication of his past disgrace (I know his mother would have seen it that way--Xuande would likely have seen it that way as well). I think his mother's rebukes and suicide just took the wind out of his sails.
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Unread postby Sora » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:55 am

Jiang Zhi wrote:
GenFusha wrote::?: Shan Fu is Xu Shu right? If so.... heck yes, Cao Cao
would have dominated. Having Sima Yi and Xu Shu >>>>>>
having Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang.


I don't think Sima Yi was on the roster until much later......after Cao Cao's death at least! The dominant advisors then were Xun Yu, Xun You, Cheng Yu, and Man Chong I think......since Guo Jia was dead already and Jia Xu was just starting - she wasn't at the top yet


Sima Yi gradually moved up through the ranks of Wei. I think he was with Wei since 208 A.D.
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Unread postby Jeremy » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:30 am

Jiang Zhi wrote:since Guo Jia was dead already and Jia Xu was just starting - she wasn't at the top yet
She? I think you mean he because in reality there weren't any women strategists or at least ones that major.
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Unread postby Fumoffu » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:50 am

I doubt it. The only person who could have made a difference at Chi Bi was Guo Jia - Cao Cao himself admitted it so upon defeat. It's my belief that Guo Jia and Xun Yu were the only ones capable of seeing through Pang Tong's scheme AND stopping Cao Cao from implementing the plan. Yes, Xu Shu was proven capable of foiling the scheme, but he wasn't trustworthy enough to be able to change Cao Cao's stubborn mind.

As a sidenote, Xun Yu could definitely have changed the outcome, but he decided against doing so. I believe it was mentioned that prior to Chi Bi, Xun Yu had grown to oppose Cao Cao's objectives, which involved the dethroning of the imperial Han. He therefore wanted Cao Cao to suffer a bitter defeat at Chi Bi in order to restrain his lord. Being a good judge of people around him, Cao Cao had to be aware of Xun Yu's dilemma, and he knew that Guo Jia (being a supporter of Cao Cao's ambitions) wouldn't have had the same dilemma if he were still alive. I believe this is the logic behind Cao Cao's statement.
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Unread postby Lafeel » Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:15 pm

I think the point about this whole buisness with Xu Shu was less because Cao Cao wanted him as a strategist himself. And more because he didn't want him to join Liu Bei as a one.
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