Zhou Yu's plan for Wu domination: Could it have worked?

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Zhou Yu's plan for Wu domination: Could it have worked?

Unread postby Lu Wei » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:05 pm

From what I've read of Zhou Yu's SGZ biography this was an actual plan thought up by Zhou Yu, but unfortunately he died too young to see his plan implemented.

First, a very brief summary of Zhou Yu's plan:

Use the lure of luxury to control Liu Bei.
Attack and take Yi Zhou under Liu Zhang.
Ally with Zhang Lu, Ma Teng, Liu Bei, and Han Sui against Cao Cao.
Defeat Cao Cao.

My question is, do you think if Zhou Yu had lived to an undefined amount of years, do you think he could have pulled off his plan and defeated Cao Cao, thereby achieving basic Wu control over Han?
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Unread postby n06guy » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:10 am

i dont nkow... i dont think so. I mean, thats a really long supply train and taking Yi Zhou wouldnt be cake. Also, you never know that while Zhou Yu is off fighting Cao Cao may as well attack since Zhou Yu's campaign probably would bring lots of troops and generals, and take a long time. Also any one of the allies could turn at any time they feel the need so... but i wouldnt know... im still new. :D
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Unread postby Lu Wei » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:55 am

Remember, Cao Cao could not really launch anything like his previous massive invasion, as at Chi Bi Zhou Yu (and just to appease you all, Liu Bei) had annihilated his previous armies. Cao Cao would need significant time to recover his forces to prepare or revenge. In this time, Zhou Yu could have invaded Yi Zhou. Remember, he was looking to garner support from Zhang Lu, who would probably be more than happy to help in the destruction of Liu Zhang.
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Unread postby n06guy » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:58 am

How long do you think it would take to take Yi Zhou from Liu Zhang and how long do you think it would it take for Cao Cao to recover and feel like attacking Wu? Just normal questions.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:43 am

For Zhou Yu's plan to work, he would need total control of Jingzhou, mainly for supply reasons.
Yet for that to happen Liu Bei would have to be killed. I can't see Zhou Yu controlling the historical Liu Bei with luxury, as we are talking SGZ here. And another thing, if your gonna take Yizhou, you may as well take hanzhong. Leaving hanzhong in the hands of a potential ally of Cao Cao is very dangerous. Especially when Hanzhong is the gateway of Shu...
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Unread postby Sparkster » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:11 am

One of the most fundamental flaws in his plan is that he's rellying on people who arn't under his influence of control. Also he would never be able to control Liu Bei with Zhuge Liang advising him. A) Because it vastly improved his confidence with current affairs and B) Liu Bei wanted different things to happen when he won than Wu. If they did ally to take down Wei then after Wei was eliminated they would turn on one another and Shu would probably win.

Thats my interpretation of what would happen.
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Unread postby Gan Ning 27 » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:28 pm

Sparkster wrote:One of the most fundamental flaws in his plan is that he's rellying on people who arn't under his influence of control. Also he would never be able to control Liu Bei with Zhuge Liang advising him. A) Because it vastly improved his confidence with current affairs and B) Liu Bei wanted different things to happen when he won than Wu. If they did ally to take down Wei then after Wei was eliminated they would turn on one another and Shu would probably win.

Thats my interpretation of what would happen.


Well, if Wu had the Southland and Yizhou, sandwiching Liu Bei in Jingzhou between them, than I think Wu would come out victorious. However, I don't see Wu taking Yizhou without control of Jingzhou, and thus Wu and Shu would never be in such a position. Keep in mind that Liu Zhang had guys like Zhang Ren. He would not go down easily, and his officers would be less inclined to defect to Wu as they were to join Liu Bei. The war for Cheng Du would last longer between Zhou Yu and Liu Zhang than it did against Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:41 pm

Liu Bei had Zhuge Liang with him, who had already seen through one of Zhou Yu's plans to kill Liu Bei. In knowing this, Zhuge being the fine politician he is, would be cautious about Wu because of their last attempt on Liu Bei, and see through Zhou Yu's plan.

And if I remember correctly, one reason Liu Bei did take Yizhou was because of generals under Liu Zhang were in favour of Liu Bei, because 1) He would be a more enlightening ruler 2) He had the same family name as Liu Zhang. The west had probaly only briefly heard about Wu, and would be inclined to defend their land against invaders without Liu Bei's former description, and because of the long distance travelled the Wu troops would be at a disadvantage anyway.
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Unread postby Lance » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:36 pm

Zhou Yu's plan was, I think, heavily flawed. The historical Liu Bei was way too politically astute and ambitious to be lured by luxury, and would probably sense the trap(to better illustrate the point, think of SGYY Xuande as a domesticated turkey, pretty dumb and slow-witted, and SGZ Xuande as a wild turkey, wily and quick-witted). Plus, Zhou Yu's plan comes into competition with ZGL's Long-Zhong plan, and this could cause the detioration of Shu-Wu relations in almost the exact same way the infamous Jing situation did later on. Plus, I would like to point out that Shu and Wu, at this time, had a similar amount of talent in "high"* positions, and it took Liu Bei a couple years to conquer Yizhou....and he started INSIDE Yizhou. Zhou Yu would have to attack through Yong-An, which proved to be a nearly insurmountable task for Lu Kang some 60 years later, and that venture was ultimately abandoned with little or no gain.
*I'm not saying that Wu had the same amount of talented officers as Shu at this point(rather, I think they had more throughout the period), but people like Lu Xun, Lu Meng, etc. were still in minor posts, and, as history showed, didn't make much of an impact until later. By comparison, Shu had Zhang Fei, Pang Tong, Huang Zhong, Fa Zheng, Zhuge Liang, and Liu Bei himself playing roles in this invasion.(I would mention Yunchang, but his talent is highly debatable, and I believe he was at best an average commander, but a good warrior.)
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Unread postby White Horse General » Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:17 pm

I'd have to say simply because Zhuge Liang was with Liu Bei at the time of their encounters with Zhou Yu it wouldn't have worked. Zhuge Liang was always a few steps ahead of Zhou Yu regardless of his plans. Though I'm not saying Zhou Yu wasn't a smart man, just Zhuge Liang was his superior.
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