What if Dong Zhuo triumphed over the allieds?

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What if Dong Zhuo triumphed over the allieds?

Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:46 am

What would have happened if Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu single handedly defeated Yuan Shao and all the other prefects? Would he reign supreme and cause chaos everywhere? I'd like to keep this debate going to feel free to speak your mind.
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Unread postby Jon » Mon Nov 03, 2003 3:26 am

Hmm, unless he turned into a good person somehow(by that time's standards, the only real bad thing he did was depose the former emperor and control the new one, and kill a bunch of people) he prolly would just be assainated, and a less capable ruler would ascend, then be beaten.

Atleast what I think.
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Unread postby Lu Wei » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:05 am

Lu Bu would eventually turn treacherous anyways and Dong Zhuo's empire would fall apart, and the civil war would begin again, just with a later generation.
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Unread postby Devilrai » Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:06 am

Nothing would change he would stay the way he was before the allied attack on him, and he would stay evil even after the attack, this time with only more power in his hands. Dong Zhuo was the most cruelest human being during that time, heck I would not even call him human for that matter, he ate his food while people are being tortured in front of him. Thankfully the allied forces beat him down, and most of all Lu Bu for actually killing him.
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:13 am

If that happenend to Dong Zhou, then he would control the emperor and manipulate the supreme court, so that eventually he'd become a powerful official and have everything his own. A bit like Cao Cao, when he controlled the court. Eventually he may dispose of the emperor and become the ruler himself, or place his on it. If somebody broke up Lu Bu and Dong Zhou and same results may occur from what happened in the novel.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:17 am

For him to survive he would need to deal with Lu Bu's loyalty issue. Diao Chan would sweeten him for a while but not forever. Having purged his enemies from the capital he'd best change his rule to that of competency & virtue since rule by fear never lasts. He'd also best start looking at bringing the rest of the empire under his control or else one day the others will eventually come knocking on his door and eventually overwhelm him.
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Re: What if Dong Zhou triumphed over the allieds?

Unread postby Morg » Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:06 pm

So presumably the scenario is that Dong Zhuo's forces killed the lords of the alliance? I think that a second alliance was possible as Ma Chao, Sun Ce and all the other sons would have wanted revenge for their fathers but ultimately they would fail as Dong Zhuo's army would have been massive after taking in those who surrendered from the first alliance. Dong Zhuo had good relations with the Qiang tribes so the only threats left would be the Yellow Turbans with their constant rebellions, anyone in the easily defended Southlands (Wu) and the Southern Tribes (Nanman). Let's face it, they aren't really threats.

I honestly think that any inside attempt on Dong Zhuo would fail considering that he was a very strong man and he was always accompanied by guards (and often Lu Bu) so the only person left in this equation is Lu Bu. Considering he would have nowhere else to go and would doubtless be branded a rebel, I doubt that he would turn against Dong Zhuo unless Diao Chan got involved (Diao Chan's involvement is not guaranteed as events have changed) or some other point of jealously between them.

Considering that Dong Zhuo restored those to power who had been stripped of it by the eunuchs and he kept promoting able people (instead of friends), if Li Ru could keep Zhuo's anger in check then everything could have run fairly smoothly. Dong Zhuo was generally cruel only to those who plotted against him (and the people of Yangcheng, if that story is to be believed).

What needs to be remembered here is that Dong Zhuo seemed like an animal (torturing people while eating etc) but he was stationed his whole life at the frontier and was constantly dealing with the tribal people. Therefore his manners would have been different from those who lived in the inner cities.
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Re: What if Dong Zhou triumphed over the allieds?

Unread postby Lodril » Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:44 pm

Morg wrote:What needs to be remembered here is that Dong Zhuo seemed like an animal (torturing people while eating etc) but he was stationed his whole life at the frontier and was constantly dealing with the tribal people. Therefore his manners would have been different from those who lived in the inner cities.


Oh sure, torture may seem rude to us, but among the Qiang it was really a compliment. :lol:

Seriously though, Dong Zhuo was half Qiang anyway. He ruled through terror because he had to. He was an outsider and far more barbarian than Han, so he would not have been tolerated by the rest of Chinese nobility for very long in any case. As near as I can tell, the majority of his power in court came from horse trading anyway. Even if everything went his way, he eventually would be worn down and defeated by the Han people. Any leader who sacks his own villages to keep the troops entertained is doomed to a short reign.

And actually, in point of fact... he did triumph over the allied lords. They lost and scattered, only returning to claim victory after Dong Zhuo was ambushed and murdered.
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Re: What if Dong Zhou triumphed over the allieds?

Unread postby Morg » Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:59 pm

Lodril wrote:Oh sure, torture may seem rude to us, but among the Qiang it was really a compliment. :lol:

Not exactly what I was getting at but I think you already know that.


Seriously though, Dong Zhuo was half Qiang anyway. He ruled through terror because he had to. He was an outsider and far more barbarian than Han, so he would not have been tolerated by the rest of Chinese nobility for very long in any case. As near as I can tell, the majority of his power in court came from horse trading anyway. Even if everything went his way, he eventually would be worn down and defeated by the Han people. Any leader who sacks his own villages to keep the troops entertained is doomed to a short reign.

Where did you find the info about him being half Qiang and sacking his own villages?

And actually, in point of fact... he did triumph over the allied lords. They lost and scattered, only returning to claim victory after Dong Zhuo was ambushed and murdered.

Uh no, he didn't defeat them at all. Both in the novel and historically, Dong Zhuo's forces lost badly causing the capital to be relocated to Changan. They scattered from bickering amongst each other, not because Dong Zhuo's army beat them.
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Re: What if Dong Zhou triumphed over the allieds?

Unread postby Lodril » Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:16 pm

Morg wrote:Where did you find the info about him being half Qiang and sacking his own villages?

The village bit is in the novel... all of a sentence, but there nonetheless. Basically, to keep the troops busy, he sent them to raid local villages (it makes sense, since apparently many in his military were Qiang and not used to city life). As for the half-Qiang part... hrm. I want to say it's in that "History of the Han" encylcopedia, but I can't cite you to it directly. I just remember reading an article discussing the sources of his influence, and primary among them was that he was half-Qiang (his mother was Qiang) and raised on the frontier near them, and therefore was valuable to the Han as a diplomat. Since the Chinese were, throughout history, inexplicably poor at breeding horses, the Qiang were a valuable trading ally in addition to being brutal soldiers when called upon as mercenaries or allies.

Both in the novel and historically, Dong Zhuo's forces lost badly causing the capital to be relocated to Changan. They scattered from bickering amongst each other, not because Dong Zhuo's army beat them.[quote]

He lost the city, burnt it behind him and relocated. But held the Empire. Hardly anything I'd call a victory for the Han.
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