Could Liu Bei be successful without his brothers?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Could Liu Bei be successful without his brothers?

Unread postby Li Ruiyue » Sun Oct 19, 2003 3:14 pm

What would have happened if Liu Bei had not met with Zhang Fei and Guan Yu?

Well, he didn't get noticed for Guan Yu's deeds, only through Gongsun Zan he got recognised.

Liu Bei didn't desperatly needed Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, he had Zhao Yun, and after gaining new land with the help of Zhuge Liang (NOT his brothers), Liu Bei gained Wei Yan, Ma Chao and many more talented officers.

Zhang Fei was useful ONCE at Chang Ban...

Guan Yu would have probably stayed with Cao Cao if he hadn't made the brotherhood with Liu Bei. And to be honest, Cao Cao treated him much better than Liu Bei did.

Here's where I dislike the two brothers...After their deaths, Liu Bei swore revenge and did reckless campaigns against Wu which caused great casulties. Zhuge Liang tried to reason with him, but Liu Bei wouldn't listen.
After seeing the brothers ghosts, Liu Bei became ill and died. So technically Guan Yu and Zhang Fei are to blame of Liu Bei's death...

So what do you guys think? How far would Liu Bei have gotten without Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?...
User avatar
Li Ruiyue
Innocent Soul
 
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:05 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Unread postby Morg » Sun Oct 19, 2003 3:44 pm

I honestly don't think Liu Bei would have gotten anywhere on his own as without Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, he would probably have not fought against the Yellow Turbans and if he had then I doubt he would have had as much success. While Liu Bei eventually surrounded himself with talented people, he needed the brothers to get his start.
"If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you." - Cao Cao to Pang De
User avatar
Morg
The Man
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:46 am

Unread postby Deng Ai » Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:02 pm

I agree with Morg, as Liu Bei needed his brothers to get by in many situations. In the beginning when Liu Bei was just a nobody, his brothers helped conquer the Yellow Scarves, join the alliance against Dong Zhuo, and some of the earlier millitary campaigns that elevated Liu Bei's status.
Deng Ai
Student
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:21 am
Location: New York

Liu Bei on his own?

Unread postby Peter » Sun Oct 19, 2003 5:09 pm

Liu Bei on his own? Kinda agree with you Morg b/c...

In SGYY: Zhang Fei actively encourage Liu Bei to join the fight against
yellow turban and together with Guan Yu they achieve amazing
deeds. B/c they act like brother/ sometimes bodyguard/
sometimes trouble maker... if Zhuge Liang's story shines in
second half of the SGYY, Liu, Guan and Zhang definly rule in the
first half of the book (sorry, off topic a bit).

my conclusion? yup Liu Bei needed Guan Yu and Zhang Fei

In SGZ: I heard a theory emphasize on how three men actually aren't
brother but as master/ worker relationship. That Guan Yu and
Zhang Fei are retainer of Liu Bei and treat each other like brother

they usefulness in history? not all that much as SGYY clamed.
Guan Yu, the arrogant brat (though he does have "untouchable
" aura to it...lol) who made some mistakes seriously effect Liu
Bei in the power struggle.

Zhage Fei? well he did drink alot...lol (actually I not to familiar
with historical Zhage Fei as suppose in SGZ)

my conclusion? yup Liu Bei will not need them if and only if Liu
can find other powerful people (attitude-free and alcoholic free...
of course..).
Peter
Academic
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 11:20 pm
Location: Canada

Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Sun Oct 19, 2003 5:58 pm

Liu Bei wanted to join the military to help the against the rebellion, and once he noticed someone with the same surname in power, he would've taken advantage of the fact and would've joined under Liu Yan, and helped with suggestions towards political questions and tactical army procedures.

Yes Liu Bei did need his brothers to attain higher ranks and results, but wouldn't have done too bad without them.
User avatar
Ma Zhi Xuan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 7:49 pm
Location: In the Symphony of Destruction. Clashing the cymbols.

Unread postby Devilrai » Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:10 pm

I have to agree with most of the yours thoughts here, Liu Bei did in fact need his his sworn brothers in the beginning, but after he gained charisma, his ambition got the worst of him, he didn't care much about them. For example he didn't send help for Guan Yu, at least give him more troops. But overall, Liu Bei would got somewhere without his sworn brothers, but not as far as he did with them.
User avatar
Devilrai
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:09 am

Unread postby Yuan Seth » Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:30 pm

I think that Liu Bei would either still be selling sandals and weaving mats, or hold a minor office for his relation to the Imperial Family. I think he had low self-esteem before he met Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, and once they started to support him, he thought higher of himself.
袁 "Since the dawn of time every one will die,
Let the history books note my death with loyalty at heart." --Wen Tianxiang
User avatar
Yuan Seth
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:05 am
Location: Outskirts of Beiping - Driving Gongsun Zan to suicide

Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:40 pm

I think without his sworn brothers he would go in several different directions. Without Zhang Fei he wouldn't have to deal with his drunken rages and the flogging of his own men. But if he didn't have Zhang Fei, and he was still on the road from Chang Ban, who would stop Cao Cao from destroying them?

Without Guan Yu, Cao Cao would probably be dead now. Though the story may not lead up to the battle of Chi Bi and the chase afterwards. Guan Yu could have slain Cao Cao, but his morals were too high and he did not want to be rude. But without him, Liu Bei wouldn't have a strong giant, capable of slaying almost anyone on the battlefield.

Though, after the 5 tiger generals were formed, Shu sort of went into a downward spiral without Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. But I'm not saying that all events would happen this way without Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. Though Liu Bei would surely parish in time due to Cao Cao's cunning and powerful forces.
A beautiful face can win popularity, but a beautiful hand can win respect.

~Which one do you prefer?~

"I've killed a helluva lotta people to get to this one. And now, I'm gonna Kill Bill"
User avatar
Rurouni Kenshin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:04 pm
Location: Searching for the Death List Five

Unread postby Li Ruiyue » Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:08 pm

Thanks everybody, some excellent points gathered here.

By the way, I haven't read the full UNabridged edition of Three Kingdoms, so I might have missed key points disagreeing with my initial idea.

Okay so now after hearing your points, here's what I've come up with...

Liu Bei needed Guan Yu and Zhang Fei at first, but after acquiring Zhuge Liang and other generals, Liu Bei was doing fine until Guan Yu let Cao Cao go at Chi Bi...and then the brothers death brought Liu Bei to make rash revenge plans against Wu, which failed.

And Walter My Spider, if Guan Yu didn't join with Liu Bei, how do you know that Guan Yu would have killed Cao Cao at Chi Bi...? What if Cao Cao convinced Guan Yu to stay with him, or what if Guan Yu didn't even bother to join in against the Yellow Turban Rebellion? Just some points to consider...

Thanks again. :D
User avatar
Li Ruiyue
Innocent Soul
 
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:05 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:16 pm

The Great Lu Xun wrote:
And Walter My Spider, if Guan Yu didn't join with Liu Bei, how do you know that Guan Yu would have killed Cao Cao at Chi Bi...? What if Cao Cao convinced Guan Yu to stay with him, or what if Guan Yu didn't even bother to join in against the Yellow Turban Rebellion? Just some points to consider...

Thanks again. :D


No no no...I was giving an example. I said Guan Yu was much to moral to kill anyone without resentment. So, Cao Cao COULD ask Guan Yu to join, but how? I mean, Cao Cao only heard of his strength through the battlefield in the service of Liu Bei. Guan Yu would probably be captured since he was a fugitive. I believe this is right...but I'm not certain.
A beautiful face can win popularity, but a beautiful hand can win respect.

~Which one do you prefer?~

"I've killed a helluva lotta people to get to this one. And now, I'm gonna Kill Bill"
User avatar
Rurouni Kenshin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:04 pm
Location: Searching for the Death List Five

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 11 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved