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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:53 pm
by Separation Anxiety
How can you say Cao Cao and Dian Wei only exist to me. In my opinion the Wei generals are superior to all the other generals in the book. I do like other generals like Pang Tong and Huang Gai. Its just the book paints sucha negative picture about Cao Cao and a nice hero position for Liu Bei. Liu Beis acts of treachery numbered in the double digits. Lu Bu had 3. All of the acts can be debated, but Liu Bei still had many more than Liu Bei even if you accept only a few. I have no problem with Yuan Shao, but when you start comparing him to Cao Cao, tis a no contest victory for Cao. Yuan only had a few good generals, and he lost many of the to slander or they were killed by Guan Yu, who was under Cao. If you list Caos generals at Guan du and Yuan Shaos you will find that Cao almost triples Yuans list. The only thing Yuan had going for him was Zhang He, and he blew that. Yuan Shao was great early on in the book, but when he started desiring more power he sort of became an idiot, for lack of a better word. He didnt gain many generals. he lost many generals. he basically led to his own downfall.

Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:32 am
by AkA23
I agree with the poster above me in the book they made
Liu Bei look like a hero and Cao Cao a very evil person but that was not the case all rulers were actually neutral they were evil and good Cao Cao wasn't all bad and Liu Bei wasn't more good

One of the other reason's of Yuan Shao's downfall was also he never listened to his strategist and advisors he just dismissed them

creat new space...

Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:23 am
by Peter
dudes, you are talking far away from the topic...if you want, you can open a whole new topic just for your sake, u know? instead turn this fun read into something else...lol

Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:40 am
by Lu Wei
Thats not entirely true Dian Wei. Yan Liang and Wen Chou were more capable fighters than Xu Huang. The same Xu Huang that beat back a slightly wounded Guan Yu. Its not like Guan Yu challenged Yan Liang to a duel and killed him in the 20th bout. He ran up before Yan Liang had a chance and chopped him down. Yuan Shao should have trusted more in Xun You, and made sure some of his fighters were more alert, and thirdly should have investigated before he threw someone in prison or insulted them. The man made a few mistakes that cost him an empire. Though I wouldnt for a second doubt that Yuan Shao was noble, loyal Han supporter. Just look at his calls for actions against the eunuchs and Dong Zhuo.

Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:26 pm
by Lord Yuan Shao
If my word had more "weight" here.I could dare to request a sub forum to discuss the matters of the alternative kingdoms an personalities of the RTK.And yes,Dian_Wei only knows talk about Cao Cao and his officers all the day.That it´s what i see here. :).We must centrate in the reasons of the win of Cao Cao,not the reasons for the lose of Yuan Shao.I repeat again that there was much trouble within his lines,no matters you say,all have a reason or explanation...just look deeper on history,and read each dialog,and more important...understand each detail,not just let it pass,read them.

Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:16 pm
by Zhilong
In my opinion the Wei generals are superior to all the other generals in the book. I do like other generals like Pang Tong and Huang Gai. Its just the book paints sucha negative picture about Cao Cao and a nice hero position for Liu Bei.
Aren't those statements directly contradictory? :shock: