If Cao Cao captured Liu Chan before Zhao Yun...

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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:35 pm

Well on the huge assumption that Cao Cao can actually find Liu Shan among all the chaos and knows it is him (almost impossible but hey we are assuming) Liu Shan is around 2 at this time so it is very doubtful that Liu Bei will surrender over his 2 year old son. He will have another child. There is a good chance that Liu Bei had daughters at this time and they were lost at Chi Bi along with his wives (being related to Liu Bei is almost as bad as being related to Ma Chao) He didn't surrender for those family members he won't surrender for Liu Shan.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:06 am

Cao Cao would have just plain old killed the kid. He was leading a light cavalry unit to pursue Liu Bei; there wouldn't be anyone in the company who could take care of the baby (someone will have to change his nappy... :roll: ). Cao Cao was planning to capture Liu Bei anyway, so it doesn't matter whether he spared the child or not.

Trust me, it's not fun to travel with a baby in the best of times, let alone in a war situation. It's way more convenient to just finish the kid off.
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Unread postby Ma Chao of Xi Liang » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:31 am

He would only kill him as he was capturing Liu Bei alive.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:25 pm

I still can't see how Cao Cao would find Liu Shan. He was a baby within a crowd of 100,000 civilians. Not good odds that Cao Cao would notice that this particular child belonged to Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:43 pm

Though Cao Cao seems to have had a decent record with the family of his rivals( Lu Bu and Yuan Shao's come to mind here) but perhaps this will be diffrent.

Yes it is impossible but just try to assume. I'm using the novel's way of signs to help me
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:37 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Though Cao Cao seems to have had a decent record with the family of his rivals( Lu Bu and Yuan Shao's come to mind here) but perhaps this will be diffrent.

Uh, what happened to Liu Biao's kid after surrendering to Cao Cao? (Talking about the novel; Liu Cong/Zong wasn't killed by Cao Cao in history.)

Yes it is impossible but just try to assume. I'm using the novel's way of signs to help me

Weren't there special clouds or aura of good omen where Liu Shan was born? Stuff like that, and what with that red arc of light that beamed Zhao Yun out from the ditch at Changban, etc etc... Cao Cao's not dumb, he can find the kid. :lol:
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:26 am

Lady Wu wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Uh, what happened to Liu Biao's kid after surrendering to Cao Cao? (Talking about the novel; Liu Cong/Zong wasn't killed by Cao Cao in history.)

Weren't there special clouds or aura of good omen where Liu Shan was born? Stuff like that, and what with that red arc of light that beamed Zhao Yun out from the ditch at Changban, etc etc... Cao Cao's not dumb, he can find the kid. :lol:


He was aiming at the mother, ifthe kid had just kept well away :P would you honestly trust those two?

I'm thinking clouds turning into a big arrow pointing at Shan
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:11 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Well on the huge assumption that Cao Cao can actually find Liu Shan among all the chaos and knows it is him (almost impossible but hey we are assuming) Liu Shan is around 2 at this time so it is very doubtful that Liu Bei will surrender over his 2 year old son. He will have another child. There is a good chance that Liu Bei had daughters at this time and they were lost at Chi Bi along with his wives (being related to Liu Bei is almost as bad as being related to Ma Chao) He didn't surrender for those family members he won't surrender for Liu Shan.


This is different. Liu Shan was a son, and as we can probably assume, Liu Bei had trouble prouducing sons. Daughters were different. Sorry girls, but there was no way that a woman could revive the House of Han. It had to be a boy. I don't think he'd surrender, but he might try to bargain with Cao Cao. Maybe hand over the civillians in exchange for the boy?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:03 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm thinking clouds turning into a big arrow pointing at Shan

I like that. :twisted:

Sima Hui wrote:This is different. Liu Shan was a son, and as we can probably assume, Liu Bei had trouble prouducing sons. Daughters were different. Sorry girls, but there was no way that a woman could revive the House of Han. It had to be a boy. I don't think he'd surrender, but he might try to bargain with Cao Cao. Maybe hand over the civillians in exchange for the boy?

Liu Bei was still capable of producing sons (he got 2 more in Shu). He wasn't even 50 then; I doubt the issue of not having an heir was really on his mind at that time.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:44 pm

Em personal i would say he who use it as a barngaing chip. But i don't think Lui would care, after all didn't he throw the kid away after Zhao Yun resured him :o !!!
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