If Cao Cao captured Liu Chan before Zhao Yun...

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Re: Cao Cao captureing Liu Shan

Unread postby Shadowlink » Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:12 pm

Liu Jian wrote:
DynastyIain wrote:Always assumeing that Cao Cao even knew he had the son of Liu Bei; Cao Cao would have little or no time to bring this child up in his ways, he already had many of his own children to guide and even the temptation of using him against his own father would proberly take more effort than its worth.
Besides Cao Pi would feel threatened by all this attention on a rivals child and something nasty might happen to the kid.
By the way was Liu Bei's son called Liu Shan or Liu Chan as I am seeing both spelling of his name here, which is correct?


Good point Iain, I didn't really think of Cao Pi since he is one of the vengeful Cao son's. Well, to answer your question it is Liu Chan, but I'm sure anyone in this forum could probably prove me wrong.
it is liu shan but they change it to liu chan because liu chan is a better name alsome shan means to gave alway.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:04 pm

Ryan wrote:Actually, Chan can be used for Shan... if you read his bio at KMA it will state at the bottom.
It doesn't matter if there is another Liu Chan, it canbe said as Liu Shan or Liu Chan but Shan is the most commonly used translation.


Also, Liu Shan had a son named Liu Chan, so I prefer to be able to distinguish between the two rather than using Liu Chan for both of them.
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Unread postby Asellas » Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:16 pm

Fair enough Robin, I was just simply statign something from his bio :wink:
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Unread postby Gan Ning 27 » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:40 pm

Liu Jian wrote:Can you read Cao Cao's mind?


I wish I could. Nah, i'm just generally good at judging character, and blessed with above-average insight.[/ego rant]

Liu Jian wrote:He would probably use him for blackmail, but there is no specific evidence that Liu Chan looked a GREAT deal like Liu Bei. So instead of probably capturing him, he had the option of using Liu Chan to his advantage. He might not end up as a fool through Cao Cao's training, and he may prove as strong as Zhao Yun in later days. I don't know I'm not a mind reader, but if Cao Cao used him to his advantage, it would have been perfect for Wei.


Looks have nothing to do with it. Assuming he did know it was Liu Bei's kid, what does it matter who he looks like? Plus, there is no way Liu Shan, even with better training and discipline, could be ranked with someone at even Zhao Yun's level.
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:43 pm

Gan Ning 27 wrote:
Liu Jian wrote:Can you read Cao Cao's mind?


I wish I could. Nah, i'm just generally good at judging character, and blessed with above-average insight.[/ego rant]

Liu Jian wrote:He would probably use him for blackmail, but there is no specific evidence that Liu Chan looked a GREAT deal like Liu Bei. So instead of probably capturing him, he had the option of using Liu Chan to his advantage. He might not end up as a fool through Cao Cao's training, and he may prove as strong as Zhao Yun in later days. I don't know I'm not a mind reader, but if Cao Cao used him to his advantage, it would have been perfect for Wei.


Looks have nothing to do with it. Assuming he did know it was Liu Bei's kid, what does it matter who he looks like? Plus, there is no way Liu Shan, even with better training and discipline, could be ranked with someone at even Zhao Yun's level.


Its much more than possible. You don't HAVE to be born with Zhao Yun's skills, it takes training and hard work. Jiang Wei worked hard, if he sat around most of the day like Liu Bei, thinking more about restoring the Han than battle and strategy, where would he be?

All your saying is that no one is equal to Zhao Yun since he is obviously born with this. Or am I getting the wrong message?
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Unread postby Gan Ning 27 » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:48 pm

Liu Jian wrote:Its much more than possible. You don't HAVE to be born with Zhao Yun's skills, it takes training and hard work. Jiang Wei worked hard, if he sat around most of the day like Liu Bei, thinking more about restoring the Han than battle and strategy, where would he be?

All your saying is that no one is equal to Zhao Yun since he is obviously born with this. Or am I getting the wrong message?


Wrong message. I wasn't saying anything generally good about Zhao Yun, as i'm one of those who see him as the "glorified bodyguard" type. Yes, Huang Hao had much to do with Liu Shan's vices, and he also apparently took a blow to the head after the Chang Ban incident. However, the fact that he was so easily won over by a eunuch, despite having been taught by many of Shu's greatest administrators, gives me the impression that Liu Shan was fairly simple-minded to begin with, and definitely a slow learner. His potential was greater than he took advantage of, but it wasn't nearly the same as many of the RTK greats.
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:52 pm

But perhaps he may learn more from Cao Cao or one of the Advisors under Cao Cao? I'm pretty sure one other advisor was much better than the Shu advisors. If Guo Jia stood alive he could have taught Liu Shan better. But of course you know that he was taught under government, and not war. So you have to ask the WHAT IF statement before you answer something.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:40 pm

Lets just assume that Cao Cao somehow is able to tell it's Liu Shan I doubt he can do much with him. Liu Bei is hardly going to come over to surrender over his kid/s
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Unread postby Asellas » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:55 pm

Oh my word, someone actually revived this thread o' mine? Blimey!

Well, I'd say Cao Cao would have cleverly devised a plan that involved Liu Bei dying, Liu Chan inheriting the throne, but Cao Cao, somewhere, would be his guardian and take the Shu throne for himself and amalgamating Wei and Shu to make Wei even more powerful. Then again, with how ruthless Cao Cao was, he'd probably kill it.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:23 pm

Asellas wrote:Oh my word, someone actually revived this thread o' mine? Blimey!

Well, I'd say Cao Cao would have cleverly devised a plan that involved Liu Bei dying, Liu Chan inheriting the throne, but Cao Cao, somewhere, would be his guardian and take the Shu throne for himself and amalgamating Wei and Shu to make Wei even more powerful. Then again, with how ruthless Cao Cao was, he'd probably kill it.


I been looking through the thread list :oops:

what Shu throne? Liu Bei has nothing at that point and Liu Zhang in Shu won't care about the kiddy
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