If Cao Cao captured Liu Chan before Zhao Yun...

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LIU Bei's baby capture.

Unread postby Iain » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:23 am

Walter My Spider wrote:Well, I also said the surrender of the Han Court, since he was the rightful heir to the throne I believe.
He was a distant relative to the current emperor who was still alive at that point. And Cao Cao preferred to control the kingdom through the emperor there was no surrender needed they were already his to command.
Walter My Spider wrote: Maybe Cao Cao would have seized and killed him, which is very likely considering he enjoys killing his greatest foes. But don't you think Liu Bei had some land, within his family? Liu Biao(which I think is dead), Liu Qi, Liu Zhang, blah blah, it goes on.

If I made any sense applaud me, I'm very tired right now...
Cao Cao didnt need to ransom a child for land, If he wanted something he rode in and took it; Untill Chi Bi he had very few setbacks in conquring lands and people.
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:50 am

Well, Cao Cao wasn't exactly one to act TOO hastily. Yeah he rushed into quite a few things, but Chi Bi, he was way too arrogant because he thought he could take on both Wu and Han. If he would have obtained Liu Chan, he would have asked Liu Bei to surrender so that he wouldn't have to deal with him later. Thats the best way to deal with things. but Liu Chan could always grow up and release pain upon Cao Cao ^_^; yet still the forces probably wouldnt be strong enough.
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Unread postby Devilrai » Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:39 am

Did you all forget what happened to Liu Chan when Zhao Yun delivered him to Liu Bei, Liu Bei threw him to the ground, and if Liu Bei has the nerves to do that, what makes you all think that he would give up his land, or something else for his son? He also said that he may have many other sons...So this was just a thought to think about.
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Liu Bei throws baby

Unread postby Iain » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:31 am

Liu Bei only did that action of throwing the baby aside because he was more upset at almost losing one of his bravest generals.
As Liu Bei said himself he could always have another child but there would only ever be one as brave as Zhao Yun.
He could not afford to lose his brave general, it sounds harsh but they were very close to each other.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:34 am

How would Cao Cao know that the baby was Liu Bei's son? I don't suppose Liu Shan was the only baby among the hundreds of thousands of people fleeing south? :roll:

If Cao Cao didn't know that the baby was Liu Shan, then

Option A) He would release the baby on humanity ground.
Option B) He would do the Japanese sword trick specially crafted for babies.

else

Option C) Refer to all the previous posts before mine. :D
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Unread postby Devilrai » Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:41 pm

Well Cao Cao may not have known that Liu Chan was Liu Bei's son at first and probably kill the baby right then and there. and when he finds out that he killed Liu Bei's only son...he could be 1)Mad, because he could have used the child. 2)Afraid that Liu Bei would soon launch a wide-scale attack on Wei or 3)Happy, because the Shu-Han Kingdom would end with Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:45 pm

Great Deer wrote:How would Cao Cao know that the baby was Liu Bei's son? I don't suppose Liu Shan was the only baby among the hundreds of thousands of people fleeing south? :roll:


But I bet Liu Shan was the only baby who, when he got lost, had a superstar sweep into the masses looking for him. :)
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Unread postby Morg » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:27 pm

Great Deer wrote:How would Cao Cao know that the baby was Liu Bei's son? I don't suppose Liu Shan was the only baby among the hundreds of thousands of people fleeing south? :roll:

Surely the inherited 4 foot long arms, big ears and bug eyes would give him away? :lol:

Seriously though, Liu Shan and Liu Bei's wife would surely be distinguishable from the peasants, whether it is by jewelry or something with them. Weren't they travelling with baggage? Wouldn't that have given them away in some way?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:39 am

Morg wrote:
Seriously though, Liu Shan and Liu Bei's wife would surely be distinguishable from the peasants, whether it is by jewelry or something with them. Weren't they travelling with baggage? Wouldn't that have given them away in some way?


Nope. It's unlikely that those rich people fled while wearing all their rich clothings and jewelry. Even if we're talking about the olden days where people might be less educated and intelligent on the whole, I don't think they were that stupid.

Also, I mentioned in the other thread how rich people possibly stashed away their wealth or even gave them away during the chaotic times in order to avoid attracting unwanted attention. This is not just my own opinion but it is supported by observations made by some contemporary historians e.g. Luo Kai Yu.
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:22 am

After see through each thread, suddenly few things come into my mind. First, i think the target (i mean Liu Bei's son) still be very obvious although the Liu Bei and his wives would not wear all those rich clothings or jewelry when they fled. This is because Liu Bei should at least ordered some of his troops to protect his family and this made this particular group of people looks different with other. Then, Liu Bei and his troops also a obvious target when they travelled with horse. At here, i suppose that his wives and son should be riding with him or a least walked with him in a group. With war horse around there, it it not hard for Cao Cao's army to search for the target coz not many people could own a horse at that time. When the situation turned chaos, Cao Cao's army still could find their target because there was one general who name Zhao Yun eagerly protected two women and a child. I think it is quite easy to distinguish a normal soldier with a general unless the general himself not wearing any 'special' clothing. With this, it do looks suspicious. :twisted:
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