If Cao Cao captured Liu Chan before Zhao Yun...

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If Cao Cao captured Liu Chan before Zhao Yun...

Unread postby Asellas » Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:52 pm

I'm kinda curious about this. What if Cao Cao had captured Liu Chan at Chang ban before Zhao Yun could, would Cao Cao kill him, take him in and be his guardian then when Liu Bei passwed away, could put Liu Chan aside and inherit the Shu throne and turn it into the Wei dynasty.

So, what do you all think if Cao Cao took Liu Chan in..and how do you think he would handle the situation?
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:00 pm

Knowing Cao Cao he might have killed him, though he is very cunning and would probably use him to ransom. He would probably send messengers for a certain amount of land, or the surrender of the Han court. This is a basic idea that most people might call ingenious, though Zhao Yun, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei could easily get him back with a night raid.
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Unread postby Asellas » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:02 pm

Walter My Spider wrote:Knowing Cao Cao he might have killed him, though he is very cunning and would probably use him to ransom. He would probably send messengers for a certain amount of land, or the surrender of the Han court. This is a basic idea that most people might call ingenious, though Zhao Yun, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei could easily get him back with a night raid.



Quite good points but if the 3 whom you mentioned above done a night-raid.. Cao Cao could just slay the child if Liu bei or any of his vassals and subordinates were to cause misfortune and mishap to him.
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:02 pm

I think Cao Cao might've held Chan for hostage on Liu Bei's behalf and forced Liu Bei to surrender and maybe kill Liu Bei, instead of letting him become an officer of his army.
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:04 pm

Ryan wrote:
Walter My Spider wrote:Knowing Cao Cao he might have killed him, though he is very cunning and would probably use him to ransom. He would probably send messengers for a certain amount of land, or the surrender of the Han court. This is a basic idea that most people might call ingenious, though Zhao Yun, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei could easily get him back with a night raid.



Quite good points but if the 3 whom you mentioned above done a night-raid.. Cao Cao could just slay the child if Liu bei or any of his vassals and subordinates were to cause misfortune and mishap to him.


I considered that actually and pressed submit. I was going to correct it and say that they could get him back with a clever spy perhaps? A mole that might break up the trade off and hand Liu Chan back before anyone could know what hit them. This is just a theory as well, since this isn't definite. Cao Cao could just arrow the intervening like Shu did to Xiahou Shang at Ding Jun.
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Unread postby Asellas » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:11 pm

Cao cao knew that Liu bei would be no match for him, he would assume Liu bei would use missive tricks and plots to get Liu Chan back. It is quite prominent, I mean if you were no match for the enemy... you wouldn;t attack their forces with a puny force would you?
You would use tricks to avoid confrontation and also not to worry over the risk in losing messengers or vassals that would try and reason to Cao Cao in order to get Liu Chan back.
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:16 pm

Ryan wrote:Cao cao knew that Liu bei would be no match for him, he would assume Liu bei would use missive tricks and plots to get Liu Chan back. It is quite prominent, I mean if you were no match for the enemy... you wouldn;t attack their forces with a puny force would you?
You would use tricks to avoid confrontation and also not to worry over the risk in losing messengers or vassals that would try and reason to Cao Cao in order to get Liu Chan back.


Hmmm interesting just like how they used Zhuge Liang and Bo Wan Po slope. But with Cao Cao's foolishness, he would obviously send a small force just to try and stop him. Like at Red Cliffs( Chi Bi) Cao Cao could have easily escaped all of his tactics, yet he chose what he thought was best. So Cao Cao is usually 10 seconds behind everything.
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Unread postby Asellas » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:22 pm

At Bo Wan Po, he had Xu Shu as the head strategist and he was suggesting how to avoid Kongming;s tricks and nullify his schemes.
Though, also, in the strategies suggested by Xu Shu... they tried to trick Kongming by sending in a small force so they would probably think that Kongming would he think he succeeded and then they would get ambushed buy a larger force in ambush could have taken the Shu ambush troops though then again.... Xu Shu wasn;t able to serve Cao Cao properly so his plans might not have been executed like he thought they would be.
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Unread postby Antiochus » Mon Oct 20, 2003 12:05 am

Walter My Spider wrote:Knowing Cao Cao he might have killed him, though he is very cunning and would probably use him to ransom. He would probably send messengers for a certain amount of land, or the surrender of the Han court. This is a basic idea that most people might call ingenious, though Zhao Yun, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei could easily get him back with a night raid.


Cao Cao could not do that for 1 reason. After Chang Ban, Liu Bei had no land for a while. So he would have took Liu Cahn and maybe force Liu Bei forces to stop fighting or simply kill him.
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:04 am

Well, I also said the surrender of the Han Court, since he was the rightful heir to the throne I believe. Maybe Cao Cao would have seized and killed him, which is very likely considering he enjoys killing his greatest foes. But don't you think Liu Bei had some land, within his family? Liu Biao(which I think is dead), Liu Qi, Liu Zhang, blah blah, it goes on.

If I made any sense applaud me, I'm very tired right now...
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