The Scholars of Shen Zhou

Two questions:
a) What do you think of Sun Ce?
b) What would have happened if Sun Ce lived longer?
I'll post my opinon later.

A) I love Sun Ce. I think he was one of the most brilliant and talented rulers.

B) If he had lived longer I think Wu might very well have become the most powerful of the three kingdoms. He likely would of conquered Jing Zhou very quickly.

A) Sun Ce was certainly a brilliant millitary leader, but he was no ruler of the people...Sun Quan was much better suited for the job. In other words, he was too warlike.

B) If Sun Ce had lived longer, his ambitions would have led him to attack Jing Zhou, and therefore, an unspectacular border skirmish with Huang Zu at Jiang Xia, but I suspect he would have done better than Sun Quan did, especially with a talented warrior like Lu Ment at his side.

A) I liked him, but i think his advisors and zhou yu helped him to take the southland more than he did.
B)I think he would have been killed in a battle by some kind of ruse just like his dad. I think this because he with only a few men were scouting in enemy territiory(the taishi ci duel). He seemed inclined to go into dangorous positions.

1. I like Sun Ce, he is my favorite of all of Wu's rulers.

2. No matter how you look at it, Sun Ce isn't going to live a lot longer. He was prone to ignoring advice that didn't please him and he was so strong willed and bull headed that he would have died a violent death some way or another. He wasn't a politician and even though he was a good warrior, it doens't make him a good ruler. He wasn't one that could combine strategy in war like Cao Cao could and would been ultimately destroyed sometime before 210 A.D.

Cao Ren wrote:A) I liked him, but i think his advisors and zhou yu helped him to take the southland more than he did.

Nope. All Zhou Yu did whilst Sun Ce was conquering Wu, was to guard the rear end of his army, this is from Zhou Yu's SGZ biography.

Pang Shiyuan wrote:Nope. All Zhou Yu did whilst Sun Ce was conquering Wu, was to guard the rear end of his army, this is from Zhou Yu's SGZ biography.

True, Xun Yu was tasked to guard Xu Chang when ever Cao Cao was on a campaign too.

Anyway:

1. Well, Sun Ce is my second favourite Wu ruler. Sun Quan was my favourite. Sun Ce conquered JiangDong from nothing, but he is not the sort of person that could hang on to a gain.

2. With Sun Quan incharge of administration and Sun Ce incharge of the campaigns with Zhou Yu, then Wu would be invicible.

Zhang Liao17 wrote:2. No matter how you look at it, Sun Ce isn't going to live a lot longer. He was prone to ignoring advice that didn't please him and he was so strong willed and bull headed that he would have died a violent death some way or another. He wasn't a politician and even though he was a good warrior, it doens't make him a good ruler. He wasn't one that could combine strategy in war like Cao Cao could and would been ultimately destroyed sometime before 210 A.D.

What strategies of wars did Cao Cao combined? Why do everyone think Cao Cao was such a military genius? Most of the people he beat were basically morons and Cao Cao troops were relatively equal to them. Sun Ce on the other had beat mostly morons in JiangDong as well, but his army where a fraction of them. All campaigns that he face a good opposition, he failed miserably.

Zhang Liao17 wrote:2. No matter how you look at it, Sun Ce isn't going to live a lot longer. He was prone to ignoring advice that didn't please him and he was so strong willed and bull headed that he would have died a violent death some way or another. He wasn't a politician and even though he was a good warrior, it doens't make him a good ruler. He wasn't one that could combine strategy in war like Cao Cao could and would been ultimately destroyed sometime before 210 A.D.

Apart from LGZ's faitytales, Sun Ce's stubborn attitude is what made him so powerful. Cao Cao was twice as stubborn and was defeated many times because he overestimated himself (Chi Bi, Xu Rong battle, Wan Castle, Han Zhong..need I continue?) Cao Cao was a mediocre strategist who fell for a lot tricks. Cao Cao himself hardly did anything good, he had people to do things_for_him, while as you can see, Sun Ce basically did everything himself while under Yuan Shu and later when he conquered Jiang Dong.
Like Han Xin said, with Sun Quan as the administrative power and Sun Ce as military strategist, Wu would have taken Jingzhou earlier and mabe even Xu Zhou.
Of course, Sun Jian + Sun Ce + Sun Quan + Zhou Yu = World domination.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:

Zhang Liao17 wrote:2. No matter how you look at it, Sun Ce isn't going to live a lot longer. He was prone to ignoring advice that didn't please him and he was so strong willed and bull headed that he would have died a violent death some way or another. He wasn't a politician and even though he was a good warrior, it doens't make him a good ruler. He wasn't one that could combine strategy in war like Cao Cao could and would been ultimately destroyed sometime before 210 A.D.

Apart from LGZ's faitytales, Sun Ce's stubborn attitude is what made him so powerful. Cao Cao was twice as stubborn and was defeated many times because he overestimated himself (Chi Bi, Xu Rong battle, Wan Castle, Han Zhong..need I continue?) Cao Cao was a mediocre strategist who fell for a lot tricks. Cao Cao himself hardly did anything good, he had people to do things_for_him, while as you can see, Sun Ce basically did everything himself while under Yuan Shu and later when he conquered Jiang Dong.
Like Han Xin said, with Sun Quan as the administrative power and Sun Ce as military strategist, Wu would have taken Jingzhou earlier and mabe even Xu Zhou.
Of course, Sun Jian + Sun Ce + Sun Quan + Zhou Yu = World domination.

First of all, I was using SGYY as a basis for my arguements and since you noticed that, I don't see why you responded with an SGZ arguement.

The fact is that Cao Cao was a very good strategist and most of the time only needed his advisor's to confirm his own strategies. Sun Ce was bullheaded and he always tried to use brute force in battle. His attitude would have got him killed if he was in Cao Cao's shoes at Guan Du. Sun Ce was basically too headstrong and didn't have a sense of strategy compared to other rulers like Cao Cao and even Liu Bei. (SGYY)

Zhou Gongjin wrote:

Zhang Liao17 wrote:2. No matter how you look at it, Sun Ce isn't going to live a lot longer. He was prone to ignoring advice that didn't please him and he was so strong willed and bull headed that he would have died a violent death some way or another. He wasn't a politician and even though he was a good warrior, it doens't make him a good ruler. He wasn't one that could combine strategy in war like Cao Cao could and would been ultimately destroyed sometime before 210 A.D.

Apart from LGZ's faitytales, Sun Ce's stubborn attitude is what made him so powerful. Cao Cao was twice as stubborn and was defeated many times because he overestimated himself (Chi Bi, Xu Rong battle, Wan Castle, Han Zhong..need I continue?) Cao Cao was a mediocre strategist who fell for a lot tricks. Cao Cao himself hardly did anything good, he had people to do things_for_him, while as you can see, Sun Ce basically did everything himself while under Yuan Shu and later when he conquered Jiang Dong.
Like Han Xin said, with Sun Quan as the administrative power and Sun Ce as military strategist, Wu would have taken Jingzhou earlier and mabe even Xu Zhou.
Of course, Sun Jian + Sun Ce + Sun Quan + Zhou Yu = World domination.

I think you've forgotten a certain Lu Xun...

Han Xin wrote:True, Xun Yu was tasked to guard Xu Chang when ever Cao Cao was on a campaign too.

Yup. Even at Chibi, Xun Yu was sidelined to guard Xu Chang, whilst Cao brought his most trusted advisor, Cheng Yu instead...

But nonetheless, Xun Yu played a major role in Guandu, where Cao scored his greatest victory.

Some might interpret Cao and Sun's treatment of their talented officers differently though.

In war, it is always important to guard an army's rear, and also to provide an escape route should any unforseen and disastrous events occur.

Suppose Sun Ce and Cao Cao actually trusted Zhou Yu and Xun Yu (respectively) enough to guard their rears while they were off to wage a war against a hapless ruler?