Fa Zheng

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:19 am

Wu had that battle under control. Bu Zhi was in the area with 10,000 men. Zhuge Jin and Sun Quan were there too with about 100,000. Liu Bei could not have possible won that battle even if Han Xin was alive and serving his army.

What they mean about Fa Zheng and Yiling is this:

Zhuge said that if Fa Zheng were alive, he could pursuade Liu Bei not to attack Yiling because Zheng was more trusted.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:10 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Wu had that battle under control. Bu Zhi was in the area with 10,000 men. Zhuge Jin and Sun Quan were there too with about 100,000. Liu Bei could not have possible won that battle even if Han Xin was alive and serving his army.

What they mean about Fa Zheng and Yiling is this:

Zhuge said that if Fa Zheng were alive, he could pursuade Liu Bei not to attack Yiling because Zheng was more trusted.


There is no evidence that shows that Bu Zhi would have fared any better then the Wu officers who had already lost at that time. For all we know he could have fared just as well as Sun Huan. Also if he needed it Liu Bei could easily call for reinforcements from Yi.
There is also very little chance that Sun Quan would deprive his northern defenses to throw everything he had at Liu Bei. He would sooner broker a deal and then have a large scale battle on his hands with large potential casuaties. Their military record proves that if Liu Bei started winning battles then Sun Quan would have started offering chuncks of Jing to Liu Bei, his raising that army was to ward off an invasion of Yang not a fight to the death.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:06 am

Sun Quan had 220,000 men or so in total. Those 100,000 I told about were stationed there rigth at the start of Yiling. He was going to use them all if need be. And Bu Zhi was crushing Liu Bei and defeated Sha Moke. Sun Huan also bared a 5 month siege from Liu Bei. This isn't the novel and Sun Huan is no loser. Your only claim is Li Yi, who lost to him.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:50 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Sun Quan had 220,000 men or so in total. Those 100,000 I told about were stationed there rigth at the start of Yiling. He was going to use them all if need be. And Bu Zhi was crushing Liu Bei and defeated Sha Moke. Sun Huan also bared a 5 month siege from Liu Bei. This isn't the novel and Sun Huan is no loser. Your only claim is Li Yi, who lost to him.


How exactly was Bu Zhu crushing Liu Bei? He didn't arrive in time to fight. Did you get confused since i doubt you are trying to make stuff up. After Lu Xun defeated Liu Bei Gui Yang and Ling Ling revolted against Wu and Bu Zhi helped to put down resistance. Lu Xun defeated Liu Bei and Shamoke, there is nothing to suggest that Bu Zhi with ten thouand troops would have even make Liu Bei sweat.

Sun Huan's preformence was not impressive, he was ordered to attack Liu Bei and instead got surrounded and couldn't move bravo Sun Huan.

The Wu troops that were facing off against Liu Bei would have been defeated if not for Lu Xun. Like i stated before Sun Quan's military history proves that when push comes to shove he would rather deal then fight.
You are right this isn't the novel, Liu Bei was not in a blind rage like he was then. If Lu Xun failed then Sun Quan would start to negotiate and peace would be brokered with the return of some of Jing.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:56 am

Bu Zhi defeated the rebels that Sha Moke led.

Sun Quan gathered 100,000 troops for the exact purpose to fight Liu Bei. Lu Xun losing would mean he would use those 100,000 men.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby Six_and_Up » Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:21 am

I can find no evidence of Bu Zhi doing anything contributing to Liu Bei's defeat at Yiling. From Bu Zhi's SGZ bio, translated by Lady Wu:

In the first year of the Yankang reign [AD 220], Sun Quan sent Lü Dai to replace Bu Zhi, and Bu Zhi took ten thousand volunteer troops from Jiaozhou with him and left, going through Changsha. Right then, Liu Bei was marching eastward, and the barbarians of Wuling were rising in rebellion. Sun Quan thus ordered Bu Zhi to go towards Yiyang. After Liu Bei’s defeat, the commanderies around Lingling and Guiyang were all in turmoil, setting up blockades against [the Wu troops] everywhere. Bu Zhi thus went around to quell the uprisings.


Wheres there any record of Bu Zhi engaging in any combat with Shamoke? Theres no indication that he even fought during the campaign against Liu Bei. He only engages after Liu Bei is defeated.

This is from Lu Xun's SGZ bio on kongming.net:
As soon as the fire attack became successful, Lu Xun led all the troops to attack at the same time and beheaded Zhang Nan, Feng Xi, the barbarian king Shamo Ke (沙摩柯), as well as many others, and destroyed forty-odd camps.


Well according to this source, Lu Xun was responsible for Shamoke's defeat. Again no indication that Bu Zhi was in any of the fighting.

Now to keep this on topic, Liu Bei was going to strike Jing province regardless of Fa Zheng said. While Zheng was a good advisor and strategist, Liu Bei had a lot at stake in Jingzhou and he wanted it back.
Currently playing: Dragon Quest VIII
User avatar
Six_and_Up
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:35 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:19 pm

Sha Moke commanded the tribes in the cities that Bu Zhi fought in. Lu Xun probably killed him and Bu Zhi took care of those tribes.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:17 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Sha Moke commanded the tribes in the cities that Bu Zhi fought in. Lu Xun probably killed him and Bu Zhi took care of those tribes.


Bu Zhi was clean up. After Lu Xun took care of the fighting with Liu Bei's forces Gui Yang and Ling Ling were rebelling, Bu Zhi put down this resistance.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:53 am

PM Bu Zhi could you please indicate which historical documents note that Bu Zhi had fought Shamoke's tribes either during or after the Yi Ling campaign. So far I haven't found anything that indicates that the tribes had actually taken any cities which Bu Zhi retook after Liu Bei's defeat.
Currently playing: Dragon Quest VIII
User avatar
Six_and_Up
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:35 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved