Sun Jian

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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:49 am

The emperor wasnt there he was with Dong Zhou and if he gave it to Yuan Shao he would just keep it.
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Unread postby melee » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:26 am

MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! wrote:The emperor wasnt there he was with Dong Zhou and if he gave it to Yuan Shao he would just keep it.

The problem was Sun Jian wanted to use the seal to raise his force.It means that Sun Jian wanted to become Emperor.
Ha,the Allies fought against Dong Zhou to rescuse emperor but after that Sun Jian wanted to become Emperor!It's funny.

Even Dong Zhou controlled Emperor but he had never stolen the seal.So Sun Jian was even worse than Dong Zhou! :P
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:30 am

melee wrote:
MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! wrote:The emperor wasnt there he was with Dong Zhou and if he gave it to Yuan Shao he would just keep it.

The problem was Sun Jian wanted to use the seal to raise his force.It means that Sun Jian wanted to become Emperor.
Ha,the Allies fought against Dong Zhou to rescuse emperor but after that Sun Jian wanted to become Emperor!It's funny.

Even Dong Zhou controlled Emperor but he had never stolen the seal.So Sun Jian was even worse than Dong Zhou! :P


Actually in the novel the seal was lost before Dong Zhuo came into power. Dong was the worst of all. Murdering one emperor and planned on displacing the next one to become emperor himself. Sun Jian might not be the most noble figure in the three kingdoms but he doesn't come close to Dong Zhuo.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:21 am

Must resist urge to defend most of Dong Zhou's actions :lol:

anyway since in history, the Coaltion was for desposing Xian in favour of another so itisn't as if there was to clear a guideline as who to give it to.

In novel, Sun Jian did wrong thing morally although perhaps right thing otherwise
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:46 am

Okay, let's say you're patrolling the Han capital city, which, mind you, has been burnt almost to the ground by Dong Zhuo, and thousands are dead. You order your vassals to rebuild the city, restore the Han emperor's tombs, and help out the homeless and orphaned. Then, you receive word that one of your soldiers has found the Imperial Seal, thought long missing. You do NOT just throw the Seal back into the well. You do NOT give it to Yuan Shao, who wanted to depose Emperor Xian (Yuan Shu and Sun Jian did not, nor did a good part of the coalition - this is historically why Yuan Shu and Sun Jian went to war against Yuan Shao, not the Imperial Seal).

There is no evidence that Sun Jian planned to raise an empire. And he never did. He never even attained independence from Yuan Shu. He was, for all intents and purposes, Yuan Shu's Prefect of Chang Sha.

Sun Ce didn't care much for the Seal, simply using it as a bargaining tool (historically, he never had the Seal, and Sun Jian had given it to Yuan Shu long ago). This shatters the argument that Sun Jian was trying to declare himself Emperor.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:49 pm

Sun Gongli wrote:Okay, let's say you're patrolling the Han capital city, which, mind you, has been burnt almost to the ground by Dong Zhuo, and thousands are dead. You order your vassals to rebuild the city, restore the Han emperor's tombs, and help out the homeless and orphaned. Then, you receive word that one of your soldiers has found the Imperial Seal, thought long missing. You do NOT just throw the Seal back into the well. You do NOT give it to Yuan Shao, who wanted to depose Emperor Xian (Yuan Shu and Sun Jian did not, nor did a good part of the coalition - this is historically why Yuan Shu and Sun Jian went to war against Yuan Shao, not the Imperial Seal).

There is no evidence that Sun Jian planned to raise an empire. And he never did. He never even attained independence from Yuan Shu. He was, for all intents and purposes, Yuan Shu's Prefect of Chang Sha.

Sun Ce didn't care much for the Seal, simply using it as a bargaining tool (historically, he never had the Seal, and Sun Jian had given it to Yuan Shu long ago). This shatters the argument that Sun Jian was trying to declare himself Emperor.


You are right that Sun Jian didn't want to declare himself emperor he just didn't mind if Yuan Shu did. He was friends with Yuan Shu and knows his personality so he would know if Yuan Shu had noble purposes in mind. Yuan Shu was always disliked, look at his SGZ bio, people didn't think he was ever really loyal. He was in it for himself and Sun Jian helped him. Kinda like the people who served Sun Ce and Sun Quan, they weren't there to save the Han but to make their lord powerful, same with Sun Jian.

I thought that Yuan Shao and Shu went to war because Yuan Shao and Shu disputed someone that Yuan Shao placed in charge of the Yu provience ( i believe that Yuan Shu wanted Sun Jian while Shao placed someone else so they fought over it with Sun Jian winning for Yuan Shu. Then Yuan Shu was driven back. Sun Jian never showed that he had any more ambition then to be a general. It was his son who had more abilitions, perhaps this is why Yuan Shu was reluctant to give Sun Ce a good command. He saw that Sun Ce would turn on him when he had a good chance. It was only when he had no choice and couldn't take the part of the Yang provience south of the river when he broke down and gave Sun Ce a small force to reinforce his armies int he south.

Anyway the man that Yuan Shao wanted to put on the throne adimitly declined the officer. He wasn't going to do it. This isn't the reason the coalition split up. They split up because they had struck a blow against Dong Zhuo and put him down a peg. That is all they really wanted to do and by getting him to retreat they succeded.

Sun Jian gave up all rights to be the GA of Chang Sha when he joined Yuan Shu. Someone else was placed in charge, i forget his name but he took Chang Sha and the other southern lands and rebelled against Liu Biao. Liu Biao at first wasn't able to put down the rebellion however after the man rebelling died and his son took over Liu Biao crushed the rebellion and took back the southern lands.
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Unread postby man4422 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:46 pm

Sun Jian,
I guess hes as daring as Pang Tong, but not as cautious as Zhuge Liang. If he was cautious enough, he might have seen Kuai Yue's plan and not get attacked by Huang Zu.

If Sun Jian have lived longer, I guess he be appointed as ruler, not subodinate of Yuan Shu, and help to unite the dynasty, with the help of Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and the rest.

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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:23 pm

Sun Jian gave up all rights to be the GA of Chang Sha when he joined Yuan Shu. Someone else was placed in charge, i forget his name but he took Chang Sha and the other southern lands and rebelled against Liu Biao. Liu Biao at first wasn't able to put down the rebellion however after the man rebelling died and his son took over Liu Biao crushed the rebellion and took back the southern lands.


That's absurd. Yuan Shu was a Han-recognized official, and Sun Jian's post in Chang Sha was also recognized by the Emperor. Liu Biao was the one who received his post from Dong Zhuo.

And you call letting the tyrant slip away with the emperor a success? No! It was a MONUMENTAL FAILURE. Of the entire coalition, only Sun Jian and Cao Cao accomplished anything.

Liu Biao also didn't control Chang Sha until AFTER Sun Ce had already conquered most of the Wu territory, so it's not as if he drove them out. Sun Ce left of his own accord, because Sun Ben had taken all of the soldiers to Yuan Shu.

Yuan Shu didn't think that Sun Ce would rebel - he was taken by surprise when he did. After all, when he declared himself Emperor, he thought that Sun Ce was his loyal vassal. Keep in mind that up until Yuan Shu's ascension, Sun Ce was NOT a ruler, but rather a general under Yuan Shu just like his father. He just happened to be in command of the Yang province territories. Even Zhou Yu spent more time with Yuan Shu than he did with Sun Ce.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:09 am

Sun Gongli wrote:
Sun Jian gave up all rights to be the GA of Chang Sha when he joined Yuan Shu. Someone else was placed in charge, i forget his name but he took Chang Sha and the other southern lands and rebelled against Liu Biao. Liu Biao at first wasn't able to put down the rebellion however after the man rebelling died and his son took over Liu Biao crushed the rebellion and took back the southern lands.


That's absurd. Yuan Shu was a Han-recognized official, and Sun Jian's post in Chang Sha was also recognized by the Emperor. Liu Biao was the one who received his post from Dong Zhuo.

And you call letting the tyrant slip away with the emperor a success? No! It was a MONUMENTAL FAILURE. Of the entire coalition, only Sun Jian and Cao Cao accomplished anything.

Liu Biao also didn't control Chang Sha until AFTER Sun Ce had already conquered most of the Wu territory, so it's not as if he drove them out. Sun Ce left of his own accord, because Sun Ben had taken all of the soldiers to Yuan Shu.

Yuan Shu didn't think that Sun Ce would rebel - he was taken by surprise when he did. After all, when he declared himself Emperor, he thought that Sun Ce was his loyal vassal. Keep in mind that up until Yuan Shu's ascension, Sun Ce was NOT a ruler, but rather a general under Yuan Shu just like his father. He just happened to be in command of the Yang province territories. Even Zhou Yu spent more time with Yuan Shu than he did with Sun Ce.


You misunderstood me. I didn't mean that Sun Jian's office was stripped away i meant he gave up the office. Yuan Shu made Sun Jian inspecter if the Yu provience (he cannot be both at the same time) He had no say about what happened in Chang Sha and none of his people remained in it. After Sun Jian's death all of his people went back to Yuan Shu (they along with Sun Jian worked for him)

While the colation said that their aim was to get rid of Dong Zhuo they really didn't care that he controlled the emperor. If you notice they all went home after Dong Zhuo left for Chang Sha. They had the advantage then why didn't they pursue? They didn't care about rescuing the emperor all they wanted to do was take Dong Zhuo down a peg which they did. If they trully wanted to save the emperor they would have continued the fight but they didn't. This shows that saving the empeor wasn't their real objective. oh and you said only Sun Jian and Cao Cao accomplished something but Cao Cao acomplished nothing. All Cao Cao managed to do was get his ass kicked by Xu Rong. Dong Zhuo defeated every effort the alliance made in the east only Sun Jian won any victories (he managed to defeat Hua Xiong a civil offical and Lu Bu who was vastly outnumbered by Sun Jian and Yuan Shu) The alliance completed their real objective and went home.

Liu Biao was the governor of Jing, all of Jing was under his rule. Sun Ce had no claims to Chang Sha and i never claimed that he did. There was a rebellion as Liu Biao's SGZ says
"The Grand Administrator of Chang Sha, Zhang Xian, rebelled against Liu Biao and Liu Biao personally led his troops to suppress the rebels. However, after surrounding the city (where Zhang Xian was based) for several years, Liu Biao was unable to capture it. Later, Zhang Xian passed away and his supporters decided to let his son, Zhang Yi, take over as the Grand Administrator of Chang Sha. Seeing that as an opportunity, Liu Biao launched an attack and managed to defeat Zhang Yi. Liu Biao thus captured Chang Sha."
Liu Biao always controlled Jing he just lost control of it when the rebellion started. He retook those lands after putting down the rebellion.

Also i never claimed that Sun Ce was a ruler. I said that Yuan Shu didn't want to give him a command. I meant he didn't want to give Sun Ce an important position and power. It was only when Yuan Shu couldn't take Mo Ling did he decide to use Sun Ce. Plus i never claimed that he knew that Sun Ce was not loyal i said he was suspitious of Sun Ce and didn't trust him like he trusted his father and didn't trust Sun Ce with that kind of power.


You really didn't disagree with too much that i said, i think you misunderstood my post more then disagreed with it.
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Unread postby jonathanyu » Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:22 am

I think Sun Jian was a decent leader. I think if he lived longer it would have helped Wu a lot. But I don't think he is the best ruler from Wu. The best was clearly Sun Quan. Both Jian and Ce were decent but they had problems with emotions. I think that this is what Ce and Jian needed.

Sun Jian: needed an advisor, i don't think he had one when he was alive (not sure). Should have made smarter decisions; concealing the imperial seal

Sun Ce: him and Zhou Yu=deadly combination, he got angry too often. Shouldn't worry about ghosts :(
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