Sun Jian

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Unread postby CK » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:09 pm

If Sun Jian had lived, he would probably lose most of the lands he gained. He's a fearsome warrior and great leader no doubt, but he lacked political clout and statesmenship.
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Unread postby LittleConqueror » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:56 pm

It's good to know that Sun Jian is respected by all. I think that SunJian would have killed Liu Biao then Yuan Shu and all those idiots in Yang. Imagine this: Sun Jian, Sun Ce, Zhou Yu, Taishi Ci, Gan Ning all on one team attacking Cao Cao. I think Sun Jian could have taken over China if he didn't die.
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Unread postby Lance » Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:15 pm

Hmmm....I must say Little Conquerer, though I'm a Shuist, I strongly disagree. I believe Cao Cao is a better commander than Sun Jian....or any of the Sun family, for that matter. Cao Cao has Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren, Cheng Yu, Xun Yu, Xun You, Dian Wei, and Man Chong....as well as many other talents that I'm sure some one more knowledgable of Wei could provide a list of. Remember, Zhou Yu defeated Cao Cao at Cao's worst, when Cao let his arrogance get too influential. No one beat Cao Cao at his best, when he listened to his advisors and gave serious thought to battle plans and using common sense.
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Unread postby Chao Tzu Lung1 » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:22 pm

u have a point Lance, but the many generals that cao cao had, Wu had just as many generals of equal quality. the generals on wu side i felt, if they didn;t so early in the history, would have a strong impact of the growing strength of Wu. 3-4 generals of wei could be consdiered one general of Wu(Zhou Yu, Lu Xun, Taishi Ci, etc.) in the end i think china would have been under Wu if sun jian didn;t die, because he would have made liu bei powerless and evenually stripped cao cao of his power, because sun jian would have stopped at nothing to unify china, he conquered the south because he wanted too and he wanted to make china Wu china, he would have set his mind to it and completed that also.
Zhao Yun, the best general for any ruler, but everyone has to die just as they live, even the heroes.....
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:41 pm

madaboutcheese wrote:If Sun Jian had lived, he would probably lose most of the lands he gained. He's a fearsome warrior and great leader no doubt, but he lacked political clout and statesmenship.


As if Liu Bei and Cao Cao were so great on their own
I find your statement pretty daft..since it's the ministers and court politicians that decide those things.
Where was Cao Cao without Cheng Yu, Guo Jia, Xun Yu etc? Where was Liu Bei without Zhuge Liang, Fa Zheng and Dong Yun?
I rest my case.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:46 pm

Lance wrote:Hmmm....I must say Little Conquerer, though I'm a Shuist, I strongly disagree. I believe Cao Cao is a better commander than Sun Jian....or any of the Sun family, for that matter. Cao Cao has Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren, Cheng Yu, Xun Yu, Xun You, Dian Wei, and Man Chong....as well as many other talents that I'm sure some one more knowledgable of Wei could provide a list of. Remember, Zhou Yu defeated Cao Cao at Cao's worst, when Cao let his arrogance get too influential. No one beat Cao Cao at his best, when he listened to his advisors and gave serious thought to battle plans and using common sense.


:lol: That is so not true. :lol:
You should really read your SGYY again. Would you like me to list all the defeats that Cao Cao suffered? How can you say Cao Cao was at his worst at Chi Bi? He had the largest army in China, going up against the child ruler of Jiang Dong. :lol:
Cao Cao was at his best at Han Zhong, yet he got beat by the master mind Fa Zheng. :lol:
It's really funny to read this biased stuff..really, to say nobody can beat Cao Cao is like believing in Zhuge Liang's magic. :lol:
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Unread postby Chao Tzu Lung1 » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:50 pm

lol people in taiwan and in china say that zhuge liang never existed they have no proof of his actual existance. u think that's true or my friend just messin with me???????/
Zhao Yun, the best general for any ruler, but everyone has to die just as they live, even the heroes.....
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:52 pm

Chao Tzu Lung1 wrote:lol people in taiwan and in china say that zhuge liang never existed they have no proof of his actual existance. u think that's true or my friend just messin with me???????/


I think your friend has a really odd sense of humor.
Zhu Ge Liang is also a Taiwanese pop singer :lol: (true fact)
Last edited by Zhou Gongjin on Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Chao Tzu Lung1 » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:56 pm

LOL
nm then,i think if sun jian did live, in the end, the outcome of china would be totally different.
Zhao Yun, the best general for any ruler, but everyone has to die just as they live, even the heroes.....
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Unread postby Lance » Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:05 am

I never thought I'd end up defending Cao Cao.......what has the world come to? Fa Zheng is a genious, simple as that. However, Zhou Yu wasn't much historically, and by the time the actual clash between Cao Cao and Sun Jian took place, Lu Xun wouldn't be around. Cao Cao was at his best at Guan-Du and against Ma Chao, both of which great victories. Cao Cao is probably one of the greatest commanders in Chinese history, and he was arguably the best commander of his time. But, now, I can add a few more names to his wisely used officers......Xu Zhu, Liu Ye, Cao Hong, and Li Dian. Though Sun Jian had an illustrious(but short) career, his achievements pale in comparison to Cao Cao's, and Sun Jian just seems a notch below Cao Cao in leadership......also, though Sun Ce is undoubtably good, keep in mind that he defeated such as Liu Yong, Xu Gong, Yan Baihu, and Wang Lang.....none of which are anything to brag about...however, Sun Ce did it very quickly, which does point to a large skill gap between Sun Ce and the abovementioned crushees.......
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