If Guan Yu had killed Cao Cao

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If Guan Yu had killed Cao Cao

Unread postby Kublai Khan » Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:48 am

What if Guan Yu had killed Cao Cao when he had the chance at the battle of Chi Bi. Would Wu have tried to conquer Wei? Would Shu have ever been formed? Would someone have just taken Cao Cao's place, or would his heirs and generals have fought over his territory for his power?

I personally think that the Wei territory would have gone into it's own little civil war, with many of Cao Cao's former generals fighting over control. I also think Wu wouldn't have attacked Wei, even though it would have been weakened. Wu was very defensive and almost never went on the offensive, so I think they would have passed up the chance and just stuck with what they were good at.... defending their borders.
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Unread postby GuanYu » Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:15 pm

If Guan Yu killed Cao Cao, i don't think anything will change.
Si Ma Yi is also a good leader, it's up to the stragist. I think.
Also Guan Yu will never do something like that.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:36 pm

Well this is quite similar to the "What if Chen Gong killed Cao Cao" thread, but a little different -- this time Cao is already established in the north, and if he had held off the hasty invasion of the south (i.e. stopped after Liu Zong surrendered), there's a good chance he could have unified the country.

If Cao had died in the battle of Chibi (the Guan Yu incident is fictional, but let's just say Cao died), Cao Pi would become his successor at the age of 20. The Wei officers seem a cohesive bunch, and furthermore Cao Pi would still have the emperor in his hands, so it's unlikely that the state would just disintegrate. However, Ma Chao and Han Sui would attack in a few years, and Sun Quan would also take a couple more years to build up his strength and then strike north. (Wu in history was actually quite on the offensive side -- Sun Quan tried to take Hefei like half a dozen times, but failed each time). Cao Pi, lacking the military skills of his father, would be in trouble then and the Wei territory would be split between Ma Chao/Han Sui and Sun Quan's rule.
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:03 pm

I think that Cao Pi would be advised and somewhat controlled by Cao Cao's former advisors. Xun Yu, XUn You, and Cheng Yu would all help him. I think that Jia Xu would help Cao Pi destroy Ma Chao and Han Sui and the kingdom would develop somehwat in the same way.
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Unread postby LorD Ma Titans » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:21 am

I actually think that a civil war is not out of the question... think Cao Pi only succeed Cao Cao because of Cao's last words. There was a lot of fighting inside the Cao family after Cao Pi succeed (think what happened with Cao Zhang and Cao Zhi). Also a lot of the generals only stuck to Cao PI because of Cao Cao's last words (i think i'm repeating myself). If Cao Cao had not named a successor, heaps more conflict would have happened (think Yuan Shao and his 3 childs)
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Unread postby Kublai Khan » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:29 am

Cao also employed many great generals, but he also employed many scum bags. Many of whom would have jumped at the chance to take over. Also, the fact that the emperor was still around may have played a part.

How old would Cao Pi have been at Chi Bi?
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Unread postby Kingdom of Cheng » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:32 am

If Guan Yu killed Cao Cao then I think there would be a new ruler for Wei
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:22 pm

Lord Ma Titans wrote:I actually think that a civil war is not out of the question... think Cao Pi only succeed Cao Cao because of Cao's last words. There was a lot of fighting inside the Cao family after Cao Pi succeed (think what happened with Cao Zhang and Cao Zhi). Also a lot of the generals only stuck to Cao PI because of Cao Cao's last words (i think i'm repeating myself). If Cao Cao had not named a successor, heaps more conflict would have happened (think Yuan Shao and his 3 childs)


Yes, but Cao Pi seemed to easily get rid of them like little bugs. Cao Cao's family such as Cao Ren and Cao Hong were much too loyal to betray Cao Cao's word and would never choose another heir over Cao Pi.
In fact I think that applies for most of his generals.

Kublai Khan wrote: How old would Cao Pi have been at Chi Bi?


As Lady Wu posted above, Cao Pi was 20 years old around this supposive death of Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:27 pm

LorD Ma Titans wrote:I actually think that a civil war is not out of the question... think Cao Pi only succeed Cao Cao because of Cao's last words. There was a lot of fighting inside the Cao family after Cao Pi succeed (think what happened with Cao Zhang and Cao Zhi).

However, Cao Zhi would only be 15 years old then, and wouldn't have gathered a retinue powerful enough to form an opposition to Cao Pi. Zhi himself wasn't too ambitious about the heir thing either. Cao Zhang had stated that his ambition was to be a general (and not a scholar/administrator), so he wouldn't fight for the throne either. And Cao Chong had just died that year too, so Cao Pi's position was pretty secure.

One thing that I hadn't considered was Emperor Xian making a comeback. If Cao Pi also did the bold move to request himself to be made Duke/Prince, it's likely that the emperor would recruit dissatisfied Cao followers and reclaim power.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:11 pm

I think on that time Cao Cao liked Cao Zhi the most and want him to become his heir or that little kid who was about 10-12 years old that help cao cao weighing the elephant.
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