Yuan Shao's Fifth Son?

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Yuan Shao's Fifth Son?

Unread postby Yuan Seth » Fri Jul 04, 2003 9:27 pm

In the book, page 408, chapter 25, it says Yuan Shao had a fifth son. It was his youngest and had scabies, soon dieng. Does anybody know his name, or who he was? For me, it was quite shocking to find out that he had a fifth son. :lol:
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Let the history books note my death with loyalty at heart." --Wen Tianxiang
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Mon Jul 07, 2003 9:31 pm

I read something similar in my version of the book (I'd have to see if I can find it to look up where I read it)..anyway in the online version that Kongming.net has a link too they say that he only has three sons and Yuan Shang is the one with scabies. In fact I brought this very same question in the Three Kingdoms Questions thread: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t ... &start=330

This page and the page after it contain the discussion if your interested. :)
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everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:40 pm

Cherry_Blossom wrote:I read something similar in my version of the book (I'd have to see if I can find it to look up where I read it)..anyway in the online version that Kongming.net has a link too they say that he only has three sons and Yuan Shang is the one with scabies. In fact I brought this very same question in the Three Kingdoms Questions thread: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t ... &start=330

This page and the page after it contain the discussion if your interested. :)


Hmm...it appears that you and I must have the same book, because his was worded differently. Thank you for posting. :) This is an excerpt from my book:

.....When Yuan Shao appeared, he was emaciated, his attire in disarray. "What's wrong, my lord?" Tian Feng asked. "My life is over," he cried. "What does Your Lordship mean?" Tian Feng inquired. "Of the five sons born to me," Yuan Shao explained, "the youngest is the one I dote on. Now he is on the brink of death, afflicted with scabies, and I have no heart to think about anything else."
(a couple sentences later)
"That is true," Yuan Shao replied. "But my mind is distracted--something might go wrong." "What," asked Tian Feng, "is it that distracts you?" "Of my five sons only this one has great promise. If something should happen to him, my fate is sealed." Yuan Shao replied.
(a couple sentences later)
Tian Feng beat the ground with his staff and cried in dispair, "A godsend! And for the sake of an infant's illness to let it slip! Our cause is lost. What a shame!" With protracted sighs he staggered out.....

It said infant son. And if this infant son died, it would leave Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi, and Yuan Shang......then who's the fourth and the fifth? If it was three, then Yuan Shang would die. If I recall though, Yuan Shang was the governor or lieutennant governor of a province, so he couldn't die. Either you and I have wierd books, or he had five sons.
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Let the history books note my death with loyalty at heart." --Wen Tianxiang
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Unread postby Wizardman » Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:04 am

Maybe be had four to fool all of us.

Or maybe Yuan Shao had a son who was never recorded, or who was stillborn or something. That's my guess.
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:25 pm

Wizardman wrote:Maybe be had four to fool all of us.

Or maybe Yuan Shao had a son who was never recorded, or who was stillborn or something. That's my guess.


It could be that he had three of age, and the other two were infants. And maybe the infant showed some brilliant sign, and the infant was made to show promise. After Yuan Shao's defeat, the infants were probably killed when Cao Cao went after Yuan Shao and his sons, perhaps? Or maybe they were given to other families, and later raised without knowing their backround?
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Let the history books note my death with loyalty at heart." --Wen Tianxiang
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Unread postby Joel » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:18 am

I thought he had three.Yuan Tan ( eldest) Yuan Yi (middle) Yuan Shang ( youngest) I assumed the later hed the scabies...
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:00 am

Joel wrote:I thought he had three.Yuan Tan ( eldest) Yuan Yi (middle) Yuan Shang ( youngest) I assumed the later hed the scabies...


Yuan Yi is a cousin to Yuan Shao, I think you meant Yuan Xi. Now then, if Yuan Shang had scabies, he probably didn't die from the disease, because Yuan Shang ended up fighting for He Bei when Yuan Shao died.
袁 "Since the dawn of time every one will die,
Let the history books note my death with loyalty at heart." --Wen Tianxiang
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:30 am

.....When Yuan Shao appeared, he was emaciated, his attire in disarray. "What's wrong, my lord?" Tian Feng asked. "My life is over," he cried. "What does Your Lordship mean?" Tian Feng inquired. "Of the five sons born to me," Yuan Shao explained, "the youngest is the one I dote on. Now he is on the brink of death, afflicted with scabies, and I have no heart to think about anything else."
(a couple sentences later)
"That is true," Yuan Shao replied. "But my mind is distracted--something might go wrong." "What," asked Tian Feng, "is it that distracts you?" "Of my five sons only this one has great promise. If something should happen to him, my fate is sealed." Yuan Shao replied.
(a couple sentences later)
Tian Feng beat the ground with his staff and cried in dispair, "A godsend! And for the sake of an infant's illness to let it slip! Our cause is lost. What a shame!" With protracted sighs he staggered out.....


This sounds a lot like what i remember reading..alas I am too lazy to go upstairs, find the book and see...but that is why i was confused..at least i know I'm not crazy anymore...so there is a definate version or two out there saying he had more than three sons. Thank-you for posting. :P

It said infant son. And if this infant son died, it would leave Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi, and Yuan Shang......then who's the fourth and the fifth? If it was three, then Yuan Shang would die. If I recall though, Yuan Shang was the governor or lieutennant governor of a province, so he couldn't die. Either you and I have wierd books, or he had five sons.


The difference here is I don't recall his son actually dieing..I thought his son got well..I seem to recall some part along those lines...if that were true then it could be Yuan Shang but would still not answer the question about him having five sons...if the son did die then perhaps as was mentioned by someone else above the fourth son could have been a stillborn..except then he would probably not say he had five sons and only one showed talent here..that wouldn't make sense...either way it does raise questions...perhaps those sons were killed or died of illness so they are not talked about....I don't know...perhaps there is more information out there..afterall the Yuan family was supposed to be quite well known.
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Jul 13, 2003 6:45 am

Hmmm interesting... the Chinese SGYY says: "'Of the five sons born to me, the youngest is the one I dote on'" (i.e. exactly as the English translation).
SGZ's Yuan Shao's bio says: "Shao declined, stating his son's illness as an excuse." (Note that it's unspecified as to which son it was.) Then, Tian Feng says (just as in the novel): "A godsend! And for the sake of an infant's illness to let it slip! Our cause is lost. What a shame!" (so the son must have been young)
Much farther down in his bio, Chen Shou wrote, "Shao doted on his youngest son, Shang, who was fair of complexion."

So, in history, it seems that Yuan Shao's youngest son was Yuan Shang, who never died of scabies (since he eventually became heir). Yuan Tan and Xi also existed, but no one knows whether Yuan Shao had other sons in between.

In the novel, he had 5 sons. Yuan Shang was probably number 5 and had scabies (since he's always been his father's favourite), and two sons out of numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 died before they came of age and thus nothing is known of them; the remaining two end up being Tan and Xi.
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:02 am

I concur, Lady Wu. They probably did die before they came of age. It is either that, or a major error in our books. :) Thank you everybody for your imput.
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Let the history books note my death with loyalty at heart." --Wen Tianxiang
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