If Zhou Yu was not at Chi Bi (SGZ)

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If Zhou Yu was not at Chi Bi (SGZ)

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:12 am

The battle of Chi Bi was a monumental battle at the period of 3 kingdoms. Wei took the initiative and launched a massive southern expedition with soldiers numbering several hundreds of thousands (including newly surrendered naval troops of Jing Zhou). This forced Liu Bei to seek an alliance with Sun Quan and both sides collaborated to launch a counter-offensive based on the perceived weaknesses of the northern armies.

Zhou Yu was tasked as the overall commander of the navy taskforce and hence he was in effect directing the various departments of the Wu war office. Before the onset of the epic fire attack (thought out by Huang Gai), Wei's army was known to have suffered from epidermics due to their inability to get accustomed to the southern climate. As such, despite their numerical superiority, Wei's side could be thought of as having several disadvantages which level their strength to almost the same as the alliance.

The kingdom of Wu was known to have produced some capable commanders who were "fully operational" at the time of the battle of Chi Bi. Some of them were Lu Meng, Cheng Pu, Lu Xun, Zhuge Jin, etc. As such, the question is, was Zhou Yu instrumental to the alliance victory at Chi Bi?? Without him, could the victory be still achieved?
Last edited by Mega Zarak on Sun Jun 16, 2002 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Zhou Yu was not at Chi Bi..

Unread postby Dennis » Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:45 am

Great Deer wrote:The kingdom of Wu was known to have produced some capable commanders who were "fully operational" at the time of the battle of Chi Bi. Some of them were Lu Meng, Cheng Pu, Lu Xun, Zhuge Jin, etc. As such, the question is, was Zhou Yu instrumental to the alliance victory at Chi Bi?? Without him, could the victory be still achieved?


Wouldn't Boyan be quite a bit younger at this junction? I don't think he would have been much over 10 or so, this is just speculation based on the fact at Yiling he was described as very young. So without Lu Xun taking Zhou Yu's place, I think Gongjin is indispensible, at least by SGYY standards, because he read into a lot of things that other couldn't see. Only Kongming and Huang Gai knew of the fire tactics, so without his valuable expertise and incite there would be nothing for Wu to do but fold.
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Unread postby Anshi » Sun Jun 16, 2002 8:25 am

There is only one person besides Zhou Yu that is capable of leading Wu to victory at Chibi, and his name is Cheng Pu...actually, because of the epidemic in Cao Cao's camp, all that was needed was something spectacular to crush them, and that's what the fire attack was. If all the events follow through the same way, almost any major general (Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu, Han Dang, etc.) could have defeated Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:52 pm

It would have been tough because all the strategy that went into the battle of Chi-Bi wouldn't have been there. When Cao Cao sent the Cai's to defect there's no way to know if they would have been accepted without Zhou Yu. Its also possible that the fire attack wouldn't happen and that might spell defeat for the southland. It just depends on if someone in Wu can step up to the task and provide good strategy.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Jun 16, 2002 3:02 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:It would have been tough because all the strategy that went into the battle of Chi-Bi wouldn't have been there. When Cao Cao sent the Cai's to defect there's no way to know if they would have been accepted without Zhou Yu. Its also possible that the fire attack wouldn't happen and that might spell defeat for the southland. It just depends on if someone in Wu can step up to the task and provide good strategy.


I'm sorry but I'm actually refering to the historical context. Novel-wise, I would say that Zhou Yu was a critical factor for Wu's victory in Chi Bi. In fact, some would say that Zhou Yu was presented as the 2nd most intelligent character in SGYY besides Zhuge Liang (beating Cao Cao, etc., instrumental in Sun Ce's swift subjugation of the Wu's prefectures)
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Jun 16, 2002 3:13 pm

It would have been nice if you told me that earlier.

From Zhou Yu's SGZ biography it says that the fire plan was Huang Gai's idea and besides from that Huang Gai was the one to carry it out. I guess Zhou Yu wasn't that important but Wu would probably have lost without Huang Gai.
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Re: If Zhou Yu was not at Chi Bi..

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:25 am

Zhou Lide wrote:Wouldn't Boyan be quite a bit younger at this junction? I don't think he would have been much over 10 or so, this is just speculation based on the fact at Yiling he was described as very young. So without Lu Xun taking Zhou Yu's place, I think Gongjin is indispensible, at least by SGYY standards, because he read into a lot of things that other couldn't see. Only Kongming and Huang Gai knew of the fire tactics, so without his valuable expertise and incite there would be nothing for Wu to do but fold.


Lu Xun was born in 183 A.D. and at the battle of Chi Bi (208 A.D.), he was already 25 years old. He served Sun Quan at 21 years old and by 208 A.D., he would have serve Wu for 4 years.
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Re: If Zhou Yu was not at Chi Bi..

Unread postby Dennis » Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:29 am

Great Deer wrote:Lu Xun was born in 183 A.D. and at the battle of Chi Bi (208 A.D.), he was already 25 years old. He served Sun Quan at 21 years old and by 208 A.D., he would have serve Wu for 4 years.


I guess it's another SGYY screw up then. My mistake.
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Unread postby Zhang of Yen » Mon Jun 17, 2002 6:45 pm

The real battle of Chi Bie had much less of Zhou Yu in it. The battle of Chi Bi was two halves. The first half was a great victory of Liu Bei, which caused Wei to retreat while the second half was of HUAN GUY how using his own tactic set the retreating navy on fire.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:29 am

Zhang of Yen wrote:The real battle of Chi Bie had much less of Zhou Yu in it. The battle of Chi Bi was two halves. The first half was a great victory of Liu Bei, which caused Wei to retreat while the second half was of HUAN GUY how using his own tactic set the retreating navy on fire.


There wasn't any mention in SGZ that the battle was split into 2 halves and specifically, the first half being won by Liu Bei.
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