Lord_Kongming wrote::lol: Ma Su? He was extremely intelligent, just not wise.
Lord_Kongming wrote:He was on par with Lu Xun in mind probably but not in wisdom. He was a smart idiot. Think of it that way. Smart-Int Wis-Idiot.
p wrote:TheGreatNads, TheGreatNads: what qualities do you call upon as strategist? for me, there are great differences b/c a political strategist and field strategist. Zhuge Liang is one that master the former but not nessary in the field.
p wrote:Now, as the arguement of Lu Xun, weather he is great or not lies on what he had accomplished (the fairest way), count on one's didecations and contribution of the country. Yes, it might be true the Lu Xun is illed defintion of a strategist by your opinion, but nothing stop the fact in the tatical level, Lu Xun won at Yi Ling and numerous battles (for facts, please look in SGZ).
p wrote:second part on your refusal to reconize Ma Su as intelligent person who Zhuge Liang looked forward to, this is simply personal freedom. But please to keep in mind, the real person that existed in that era doesn't have any numerical values attaches to them (like RTK series video games). What you need is reference point, a reliable, universal reconziable figure. Well, if you can trust Zhuge Liang's intellectual judgement, then you might as far as arguing Sima Ye might just be a third rate politican (figure of speech).
This is very vauge, as it does not either describe how Ma Su was talented, nor does the biography give examples on his talents, aside from getting into Zhuge Liang's good graces. From what I gathered from Ma Su's biography, he seemed more suitable as a freind of Zhuge Liang than he was as a capable commander. The history does record that Ma Su was utterly defeated by the Wei general Zhang He and that Zhuge Liang was unable to continue the battle and was forced to retreat to Han Zhong. One could attribute Ma Su's loss partially to Zhuge Liang's short-sightedness (putting someone in a position of great responsibility who is unqualified for that position), and not entirely to Ma Su, but the fact of the matter was that Ma Su had a job to do, and if he was indeed fond of military strategem and intelligent as his biography said, the Ma Su not might have been utterly crushed by Zhang He. Me Su probably still might have been defeated, but one can be beaten and not completely crushed.Ma Su was talented and fond of military strategem; Zhuge Liang held high regards of him.
TheGreatNads wrote:Lu Xun one of the greatest strategists? His generals did all the work for him at Jingzhou, his northern campaigns were more of a joke than Zhuge Liang's, and at Yi Ling the army he was attacking were sitting ducks.
TheGreatNads wrote:He's one of the most overated strategists of the era.
is very true. but in order to access one's accomplishments and methods of handing situations, should not one at least attempt to refernce the ability of such individual? (ie: if Zhong Tai was lead of defending army in Yi Ling and had victory over Lu Bei's invasion, do you nessary defined his tatical ability just by this single battle and not how he fought previously? and therefor do you call Zhong Tai strategist or just sheer luck? just anyone who defeat the larger force by smaller force?).look at their accomplishments and the way they handled situations
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