Zhuge Liang's Original Sucessor...Ma Su

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Zhuge Liang's Original Sucessor...Ma Su

Unread postby Peter » Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:07 pm

Ma Su, a name often make SGYY fans go "aghhh", "if he have not...", so many disscussions focused on his defeat by Sima family (by Zhange He, if refered from SGZ). I came across reading a material from a Chinese site (a eastern version of The Scholars of Shen Zhou, if you would imagine). they proposed an interesting theory that Zhuge Liang have intend for Ma Su to follow the foot step of Lu Xung (the famed strategist in Wu). Befor you forming up counter arguement (which I welcome you all), please read the related material in order to have a meaningful discussion.

Ma Su's bio will not be remention here (as you can check their bios from this site). He did not engage and many military battles befor, which is unlike of Lu Xun (many argued that the Suan Quan was sole responsible for train him by appoint Lu Xun to various tasks range from civil affairs to surpression of southern barbrians). but look back at Ma Su, we can say that he is intelligent, (otherwise Zhuge Liang would not made him an adviser and so far as letting he command) but what Zhuge Liang failed is he did not train Ma Su fully and result in his loss in battle of Tian Suian and ultimantly, his life.

does any, my follow scholars, believe in different theory and ready to prove? please, type away :P
Last edited by Peter on Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Lord_Kongming » Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:32 pm

:lol: Ma Su? He was extremely intelligent, just not wise. Theres a difference. Ma Su was probably Zhuges succesor anywei because he liked him so much (hence the crying when puttin him to death) Do you mean Lu Xun? Lu Xun roxored enough to destroy Liu Bei at Yi Ling with a grand strategy. Ma Su? He roxor... He was good enough to get on a hill and be killed for losing that hill that undid him. I hate Sima Yi/Yan/Shi/Zhao but Ma Su was no match for them... maybe Yan... He was on par with Lu Xun in mind probably but not in wisdom. He was a smart idiot. Think of it that way. Smart-Int Wis-Idiot.
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Not Wise b/c No Chances to Excerise it...

Unread postby Peter » Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:24 pm

Lord_Kongming my potint exactly, but even with natural born intelligence, he who must gain enough experience before the battle field. If Lun Xun is the one Sun Quan did not appoint him for various tasks, battle of Yi-Liang might just like the battle of Tian Shian. Ma Su's downfall should greatly contribute by Zhuge Liange's over confidence, not Ma Su himself (over confidence that Ma Su is capable to command army without much of real experience which is very unlike Lu Xun).
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Unread postby Sam » Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:40 pm

Lord_Kongming wrote::lol: Ma Su? He was extremely intelligent, just not wise.


What did Ma Su do to prove himself "extremely intelligent"?

Lord_Kongming wrote:He was on par with Lu Xun in mind probably but not in wisdom. He was a smart idiot. Think of it that way. Smart-Int Wis-Idiot.


How the heck can you come to such a conclusion? Lu Xun was one of the greatest military strategists in the era; Ma Su was nothing but a failure. I am interested to see exactly how you can compare the two the way in which you do.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Wed Jul 02, 2003 12:17 am

Lu Xun one of the greatest strategists? :lol: His generals did all the work for him at Jingzhou, his northern campaigns were more of a joke than Zhuge Liang's, and at Yi Ling the army he was attacking were sitting ducks. Nothing else he did was even close to spectacular. He's one of the most overated strategists of the era.

Anyway I refuse to look at Ma Su as intelligent either. What proof is there that he was very wise or intelligent? I don't trust Zhuge Liang's judgement. Really, Ma Su shouldn't have been sent as vanguard anyway, that was a stupid idea. Especially when Li Yan was being given assignments like transporting supplies.
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Unread postby Peter » Wed Jul 02, 2003 12:54 am

TheGreatNads, TheGreatNads: what qualities do you call upon as strategist? for me, there are great differences b/c a political strategist and field strategist. Zhuge Liang is one that master the former but not nessary in the field.

Now, as the arguement of Lu Xun, weather he is great or not lies on what he had accomplished (the fairest way), count on one's didecations and contribution of the country. Yes, it might be true the Lu Xun is illed defintion of a strategist by your opinion, but nothing stop the fact in the tatical level, Lu Xun won at Yi Ling and numerous battles (for facts, please look in SGZ).

second part on your refusal to reconize Ma Su as intelligent person who Zhuge Liang looked forward to, this is simply personal freedom. But please to keep in mind, the real person that existed in that era doesn't have any numerical values attaches to them (like RTK series video games). What you need is reference point, a reliable, universal reconziable figure. Well, if you can trust Zhuge Liang's intellectual judgement, then you might as far as arguing Sima Ye might just be a third rate politican (figure of speech).

this original idea of this post is to discuss Ma Su as a person where I use Lu Xun as an example to demenstrated the effect of sucessful aquring experience as part of personal growth. Ma Su, still in my humble opinion, just lack the chances for him to grow in the area of field commanding thus contribute to his defeat. That all :wink: [/b]
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:43 am

p wrote:TheGreatNads, TheGreatNads: what qualities do you call upon as strategist? for me, there are great differences b/c a political strategist and field strategist. Zhuge Liang is one that master the former but not nessary in the field.


I look at their accomplishments and the way they handled situations.

p wrote:Now, as the arguement of Lu Xun, weather he is great or not lies on what he had accomplished (the fairest way), count on one's didecations and contribution of the country. Yes, it might be true the Lu Xun is illed defintion of a strategist by your opinion, but nothing stop the fact in the tatical level, Lu Xun won at Yi Ling and numerous battles (for facts, please look in SGZ).


Lu Xun lost all of his northern offensives against Wei. Most of his victories were against Cao Xiu and barbarian tribes. Sure he won at Yi Ling, but it was his generals again that carried everything out. If Liu Bei hadn't made a stupid mistake like he did, I wonder how well Lu Xun would have done.

p wrote:second part on your refusal to reconize Ma Su as intelligent person who Zhuge Liang looked forward to, this is simply personal freedom. But please to keep in mind, the real person that existed in that era doesn't have any numerical values attaches to them (like RTK series video games). What you need is reference point, a reliable, universal reconziable figure. Well, if you can trust Zhuge Liang's intellectual judgement, then you might as far as arguing Sima Ye might just be a third rate politican (figure of speech).


Zhuge Liang wasn't good at much else then politics and running away. He's a lot like Liu Bei. He also had his prejudgices in picking officers. Ma Liang(Ma Su's brother) just so happened to be a sworn brother of Kongming's.
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Unread postby Cao Zhi » Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:10 am

From Ma Su's SGZ bio:
Ma Su was talented and fond of military strategem; Zhuge Liang held high regards of him.
This is very vauge, as it does not either describe how Ma Su was talented, nor does the biography give examples on his talents, aside from getting into Zhuge Liang's good graces. From what I gathered from Ma Su's biography, he seemed more suitable as a freind of Zhuge Liang than he was as a capable commander. The history does record that Ma Su was utterly defeated by the Wei general Zhang He and that Zhuge Liang was unable to continue the battle and was forced to retreat to Han Zhong. One could attribute Ma Su's loss partially to Zhuge Liang's short-sightedness (putting someone in a position of great responsibility who is unqualified for that position), and not entirely to Ma Su, but the fact of the matter was that Ma Su had a job to do, and if he was indeed fond of military strategem and intelligent as his biography said, the Ma Su not might have been utterly crushed by Zhang He. Me Su probably still might have been defeated, but one can be beaten and not completely crushed.

As a teacher, I am of the opinion that anyone can improve themeselves with study and proper dilligence, but Ma Su's history did not show that he ever improved upon his abilities.
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:32 am

TheGreatNads wrote:Lu Xun one of the greatest strategists? :lol: His generals did all the work for him at Jingzhou, his northern campaigns were more of a joke than Zhuge Liang's, and at Yi Ling the army he was attacking were sitting ducks.

A strategist not suppose to be a person who think of a plan and let his followers to execute it? Do he really involve in real action? And in the history Lu Xun did involve in some wars where he led the armies to fight the enemy. And, for Yi Ling, i think a sitting duck was too harsh for Lu Xun. He at least bloacked Liu Bei's attack and finally defeated Shu-Han's armies, i think this is matter the most.

TheGreatNads wrote:He's one of the most overated strategists of the era.

So all the historical facts that wrote by Chen Shou and other historians were lied after all? :shock: Coz we know that LGZ won't overrated a person from Wu.
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If one with such narrowed definition...

Unread postby Peter » Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:55 am

TheGreatNads
yes what you said and I
look at their accomplishments and the way they handled situations
is very true. but in order to access one's accomplishments and methods of handing situations, should not one at least attempt to refernce the ability of such individual? (ie: if Zhong Tai was lead of defending army in Yi Ling and had victory over Lu Bei's invasion, do you nessary defined his tatical ability just by this single battle and not how he fought previously? and therefor do you call Zhong Tai strategist or just sheer luck? just anyone who defeat the larger force by smaller force?).

and yes, Lu Xun's subordinate did the work for him, but both you and I should known better, there is no real way to determine who deserves the glory in a victory. (ie: the battle of Chi-bi, who can you state that deserve the highest honour? No, you can't, b/c its combined efforts. However, the master minds ((the strategists) should always be credited first! if it wasn't for them, victory in battle is not result in cleaverness but solely on strenth and numbers ((look our dear Lu Bei in his early carrer, what the difference did it make to have a field strategist)). OK. one more point, they were many experienced verteran generals at side of Wu but who has stopped the invasion of Lui Bei? Why doesn Sun Quan risk everything else to appoint him as commander of the army, a virtually not very well known at the time (though Lu xun is about 40 at the time)?

above is what I believe to inference from, that is why I choose him as the "good possibility" what Ma Su could have become if he recieve enough working experience in the battle instead be in charge in one major battle against enemy general who had much more experience (Zhange He).

about the last thing you memtion Zhuge Liang's bad qualities which are quite famous for :lol: he perfered to use people from his birth province (Xu) and residing province (Jin) that is not unheard of. But know this, there is no clear association between status and talent (the idea of it's not who you are but who you know!) Even a great ruler like Cao Cao pay particular attention about perserving the social status which people belong to. That is not a valid proof upon how intelligent Zhuge Liang really is.

now dear Cao Zhi : to be honest, I am not a fan of Ma Su, nor I intend to cover up his failure by praising his intelligence, the point is not about Zhuge Liang's decision to use Ma Su. I post this simply to propose the idea that Ma Su's failure despite his assumed interlectual ability might be due to lack of aquiring enough experience in commandership and using Lu Xun as an example, how an intelligent person after gain experience could have become.

TheGreatNads, TheGreatNads if following explanations still could meet your burning desire to express how you feel about Lu Xun, please open a new topic and I would like very much join you for discussion with others, more experienced members of this society about weather Lu Xun is qualify or not to be call a strategist :lol:
Last edited by Peter on Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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